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Re: over the edge

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:15 am
by jts
Wow, getting logged out ate my post. Frustrating! Once more, then...

Topazg: When I was thirteen my French teacher thought she would help her students out my putting a big poster that said PRENDU by the blackboard. Guess how I conjugated prendre for the rest of the year? One of the common differences, in a number of fields, between people who know a subject well and those who can teach it well, is that the knowers think that (i) negative feedback works better than positive feedback, and specifically, (ii) identifying mistakes preemptively makes it impossible for people to make the mistake again. It's easy to feel this way when you know the material really well, and find it really exciting. If you know it less well or find it harder to focus on it, which is the situation many students are in, you are likely to remember that something was emphasized, without remembering that it was emphasized as a mistake.

There are different learning styles, of course, and sometimes an expert is writing specifically for an audience of peers, which tends to lead to the sort of writing where if you start in the middle it's impossible to tell whether the author is talking about a proposition he accepts or a mistake he rejects. This kind of approach is sometimes unavoidable, but it's an awful way to introduce someone to a subject; commonly, he'll read the book and get about half of what the author wrote backwards, because he remembers which subjects were emphasized, and probably some of the pros and cons, but not whether the author ultimately accepted or rejected it.

"Kage's Secrets Chronicles" has four games, right? If I just wanted to get good at playing black, I personally would stick to the pro-pro games. If I wanted ideas for how white can profit from passive play, I would look at the pro-ama games.

Cyclops: How extensively have you looked at this? I have hunches, but if you've already looked at a ton of games I don't want to spend an hour mucking around, reduplicating your research.

Re: over the edge

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:16 pm
by cyclops
jts wrote:.........
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Cyclops: How extensively have you looked at this? I have hunches, but if you've already looked at a ton of games I don't want to spend an hour mucking around, reduplicating your research.

Thx jtx for being on topic. I confess I haven't searched at all. I haven't learnt yet how to. I don't want to invite anybody to spend hours searching but maybe someone remembers spontaneously.
And off topic. Yes jts I understand your objections. I've been reading Ishida's joseki dictionary. Often he refutes a sequence as bad. But I tend to remember the sequence; not that it is bad.

For all: Sadly I leave this thread to you to fill in the topic as you want. :sad:

Re: over the edge

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:51 pm
by jts
I glanced through six games just to get a first impression of what's normal. I looked at the first first-line move simply, but also for my own curiosity looked for what I considered the first yose first-line move, defining that as "not a move that is a forcing move w.r.t. the life or capture of a group of stones, nor one that is forced in that respect." You can whine about how I defined that, and the line isn't 100% clear, but here is what I found.

#1: 40, 213
#2, 91, 204
#3, 22, 192
#4, 62, none (resignation at 254)
#5, 108, 173
#6, 116, none (resignation at 130)

So I suspect you're right, 150 is a little late, but something later doesn't seem out of the range of possibility.

Re: over the edge

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:23 pm
by cyclops
Thx jts for searching. In the game I refer to, W 164 is necessary to make a group alive. It is next to the corner. W166 was also a first line move and also meant for life but it was deemed unnecessary by Yuan Zhou. I guess 164 it is not a bit late but an extremely late first first line move.

Re: over the edge

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:22 pm
by ez4u
On topic? How boring... unless you are some sort of data nerd. :D
So the first ~7000 games in GoGoD (i.e. about 10% of the total; from the earliest through 1932) yields the following games with the first play on the side on move 160 or later:
Latest play of stone on first line.png
Latest play of stone on first line.png (108.49 KiB) Viewed 8762 times

Edit: A quick review found 3 missing (including the longest!) so with 70 examples out of about 7000 games, we have about one in a hundred games like this.
And for fun this is the move 205 game...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Han Xuenyuan - Huang Jilu, ~1730, Move 205
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X O O X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O O O . O O , X O O X . X X X . |
$$ | 1 X O . . X X X X X X O O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . X O X O X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O . X X X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O O X O . O X . . O . O . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . O O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O O O X X O O . , O X O X X O X O . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . X X X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X . X O O O X O X . X X . |
$$ | . X X O X O O X . X O O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X O X X X X X O . O X X . X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . X O . O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . O O X X X O . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X O X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X O . . X X . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]