Life In 19x19

Boidhre wrote:jts I'm curious about this as I'm not strong enough to know for sure but:

Chess for beginners always struck me as learning good moves primarily.
Go for beginners always struck me as unlearning bad ones primarily.

With the caveat that I never played neither chess nor go at a high level.

I see it the opposite way

In Go, most bad moves only mean a wasted move, out of the 100-odd that each player might play in a game. In chess, a bad move by a beginner probably loses a piece, which usually means losing the game. So Go is more forgiving of bad moves. However, Go is more of a blank canvas. You need to be creative, which means actively looking for a good move. In chess, you can get quite far by just sitting back and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake.

PeterPeter wrote:

Boidhre wrote:jts I'm curious about this as I'm not strong enough to know for sure but:

Chess for beginners always struck me as learning good moves primarily.
Go for beginners always struck me as unlearning bad ones primarily.

With the caveat that I never played neither chess nor go at a high level.

I see it the opposite way

In Go, most bad moves only mean a wasted move, out of the 100-odd that each player might play in a game. In chess, a bad move by a beginner probably loses a piece, which usually means losing the game. So Go is more forgiving of bad moves. However, Go is more of a blank canvas. You need to be creative, which means actively looking for a good move. In chess, you can get quite far by just sitting back and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake.

Those 200 odd moves are not of equal value though. I accept your point however.

PeterPeter wrote:So Go is more forgiving of bad moves.

Hmm... this area is a little deep. Go can be extremely unforgiving of a bad move.

EdLee wrote:

PeterPeter wrote:So Go is more forgiving of bad moves.

Hmm... this area is a little deep. Go can be extremely unforgiving of a bad move.

Such as when you make one endgame mistake and lose by .5

Boidhre wrote:[..]

Kyu Games:

Double Digit Kyu Games by Steve Moffat (games of ddk players dissected and analysed but not in a lot of depth but it assumes very little knowledge or skill from its reader)

[..]

I guess you mean Neil Moffatt. And this book: “Go by example”?
http://www.learngo.co.uk/

Neil sometimes plays on Kaya as MoffyUK, BTW. Currently he’s around 5k on Kaya, and he likes to give teaching games.

Bonobo wrote:

Boidhre wrote:[..]

Kyu Games:

Double Digit Kyu Games by Steve Moffat (games of ddk players dissected and analysed but not in a lot of depth but it assumes very little knowledge or skill from its reader)

[..]

I guess you mean Neil Moffatt. And this book: “Go by example”?
http://www.learngo.co.uk/

Neil sometimes plays on Kaya as MoffyUK, BTW. Currently he’s around 5k on Kaya, and he likes to give teaching games.

Indeed you are correct. He's a nice guy, the book is useful I think for weaker ddks and I don't know of any other book out there that reviews ddk games.

NoSkill wrote:Such as when you make one endgame mistake and lose by .5

Yes -- that precisely happened to me at 2011 US Go Congress, Game 3! --
or I'm ahead the entire game for 200+ moves, playing OK, OK+, or even OK++ moves (for around my levels), then 1 stupid mistake, game over.

Right now I'm re-reading Go Seigen's A way of play for the 21st Century
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AWayOfPlayForThe21StCentury
and I'm enjoying it a lot:
It's easy to read, there are few moves in every diagram and, that's the best, when Go Seigen plays a pivotal move and I wonder why he didn't play otherwise, then the very next diagram shows why he didn't!
It happened to me at least three times, and there's only one minor defense move I haven't still grasped.

NoSkill wrote:And to explain a pro game to a beginner... not going to happen.

I hear this type of "excuse" quite often, and its just not true.

I believe there's a lot one can learn from pro games, regardless of your level, and even without commentary. But a good commentary can really make a world of difference.

Remember, pros used to be not-pros once upon a time, and they learned from studying other pro's games. We can too.

I would actually prefer to learn from the best possible games available, than to learn from imperfect amateur games -- that I might have to unlearn later.

Some English-language books with professional-level games annotated for the amateur:

"Appreciating Famous Games" by Shuzo Ohira spends 270 pages analyzing ten pro games in considerable depth.

"Kage's Secret Chronicles of Handicap Go" by Toshiro Kageyama analyzes nine handicap games (mostly pro vs. pro but there are three pro vs. amateur games) in 204 pages.

"Masterpieces of Handicap Go," Vols. 1 and 2, analyzes 38 pro-level handicap games in about 370 pages (total for both volumes).

"Pro-Pro Handicap Go" analyzes 3 pro-level handicap games in great depth in the first 180 pages, and the opening of eight other games (first 50 moves) in much lesser depth in the last 30 pages.

"The 1971 Honinbo Tournament" analyzes 14 professional games from a single tournament in 200 pages.

Of these books, "Appreciating Famous Games" and "Kage's Secret Chronicles of Handicap Go" are probably the closest to what you are looking for. Unfortunately the former is out of print.

Go Review is a good source of games between strong players (often pro vs. amateur) annotated for amateurs. There are usually one or two games annotated in detail in each issue. The josekis and openings may be a bit dated. All issues of Go Review are available from Kiseido's Digital Bookshelf.