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Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:32 am
by John Fairbairn
Since I am moving to London soon, I started to worry about the many people who keep saying that the English speaking Go world is in miserable shape (worldwide). So what do you say, is it decline, stagnation or growth? And if the answer is decline or stagnation, why is this the case and who is to blame?
Rather than carry the woes of the whole English-speaking go world on your shoulders, just enjoy London. I think there are currently four weekly clubs in London that have dan players, and there are still over 30 tournaments a year - travel in the compact UK is generally easy and you can often share a car or accommodation if necessary. Meat-space activity is not what it was in pre-internet days, of course, but Brits are given to understatement, so you will find there is much more going on than they will shout about.
Like other visitors, you are also welcome to attend a GoGoD executive meeting if you are in central London of a Friday.
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:00 am
by EdLee
TheBigH wrote:On reflection, I think in today's "instant gratification" culture it's hard for a game like go to take hold. The stones don't move once placed and all the stones are the same, which at first glance can seem static and monotonous when compared with a game like chess, where the pieces all have different abilities and can move. You don't really appreciate a good running battle in go until you've gained some experience with the game. Many of us westerners think a movie is boring if it's not continually punctuated by explosions, or if individual camera shots go on for more than a few seconds. How tedious will a two hour game of go be?
On top of that, go has a wicked steep learning curve. You've got to put some effort into becoming good enough at the game to enjoy playing it. To begin with you will feel stupid and inadequate as you try and fail to make even a single living group, which will not appeal to people who expect a game to give them instant rewards and continual encouragement. The fact is that the rewards are more subtle and beautiful because they are hard to achieve, but it's hard to convince beginners of that. It's understandable if people give it up at the first hurdle.
Almost everything above also applies to golf, but golf is much more popular. So it's something else.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:30 am
by ProtoJazz
Golf does have instant gratification though. You hit a ball with a stick, doesnt get much better then that
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:00 am
by EdLee
ProtoJazz wrote:Golf does have instant gratification though. You hit a ball with a stick, doesnt get much better then that
That's not what I found out the first time on the driving range.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:36 am
by hyperpape
Ed's right. Golf is mostly waiting and walking, but it's popular (for reasons that I can't quite understand).
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:56 am
by mlund
The thing with Golf is it only requires 1 player. You can compete against your best score on any given course. If you don't like a shot and there's nobody waiting behind you then just pull out another ball and take the shot again so you get it right (I recommend you still play your original, crappy shot you put into the bushes, though).
While you can do a lot of studying in Go by yourself, the act of playing the game is a 2-person affair. That means a lot depends on who is sitting across from you. They impact the course you play on with every move. If you had to always have an opponent and he could rearrange items on the course after each of your shots you'd have a lot fewer duffers in golf.
In that regard, one of the biggest barriers to entry for new Go players is the population of existing Go players.
- Marty Lund
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:16 am
by jts
Both of the last two go clubs I've attended often had more new-ish people than sets for them to play on, so it seems difficult to talk about decline in the classical sense. The association of WWII submariners is a declining organization - it has an institution, it has infrastructure, it has money, it has social capital, it's just running a little low on members. I don't think Go is like that.
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:07 pm
by EdLee
hyperpape wrote:Golf is mostly waiting and walking, but it's popular (for reasons that I can't quite understand).
Actually, I have some idea. I found golf to be just as deep as Go. I think this aspect is the same for Go and golf.
mlund wrote:While you can do a lot of studying in Go by yourself, the act of playing the game is a 2-person affair. ...
I also found out Go and golf are very similar in this aspect: most of the time of the golf pro is spent practicing by himself/herself, and not playing in tournaments.
So this part is also the same, not very different between Go and golf.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:12 pm
by SmoothOper
I don't think clubs are so important for Go. I saw a lecture one computer Go, so I went and looked up the game, and talked my friends into playing, none of which had known about the game previously. It was years before I even realized there were Go clubs or you could play online. Of course serious gamers are a little weird.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:24 pm
by oren
If there weren't clubs, I know I wouldn't be playing go.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:34 pm
by Marcus
oren wrote:If there weren't clubs, I know I wouldn't be playing go.
Funny. If there weren't online servers, I would not be playing Go.
I know there are a few clubs in my area (probably more than I realize). I don't have time to go to any of them, so I don't realy have a feel for the state of Go in my area.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:46 pm
by hyperpape
If there weren't online servers and clubs, I wouldn't be playing go...I'd say they're 50-50 for me.
Re:
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:49 pm
by hyperpape
EdLee wrote:hyperpape wrote:Golf is mostly waiting and walking, but it's popular (for reasons that I can't quite understand).
Actually, I have some idea. I found golf to be just as deep as Go. I think this aspect is the same for Go and golf.
Yes, that's right. Though things can be awfully deep yet awfully lacking in fun or interest (I find Dots and Boxes to be that way). But my comment was more stream of consciousness. Golf isn't one of my games, but I don't mean to trash it.
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:33 pm
by EdLee
hyperpape wrote:Golf isn't one of my games, but I don't mean to trash it.
It's not mine, either; no problem.
And yes, there are tons of other disciplines just as deep and profound; we just take up what we enjoy.
Re: English speaking Go world - decline, stagnation, growth?
Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:27 pm
by mdobbins
If you look over 5 years and compare to 25 years, you will see different pictures!
Over the longer time frame, go has really spread at least 100 fold!