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#186 - topazg vs. skydyr

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=7257

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Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:44 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:52 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Following the plan

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:15 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[hide]I'm not too worried about white building strength facing upwards because it backs onto black's shimari, which is still strong. So far this is all going according to the plan I mentioned a few moves ago.

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:41 am
by Marcus
Enjoying the game so far! Keep it up guys!

Obs:
I always find it interesting how both players will be following the same plan and both feel ok. Is this typical? I always feel (not necessarily correctly) like one side is getting a better deal.

In this case, I like the deal that topazg is getting here. The shimari is facing an increasingly strong white group. It looks like skydyr will have to effectively use the wall he's just created ... something I'm terrible at doing, so I can't see what kind of plan he could or should make here.

I guess I am really weak in the opening, so take my comments with a grain of salt. :mrgreen:

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:55 am
by EdLee
Marcus,
Marcus wrote:I always find it interesting how both players will be following the same plan and both feel ok. Is this typical?
A few possibilities:
- both sides are correct (the situation is equal; for example, local joseki, or globally early in the opening);
- one side is 100% correct (the situation is a disaster for one side; so the other person must be completely wrong);
- the situation is slightly better for one side, but it's still too early or too close to call, so both sides are still correct;
- the situation is super messy and unclear (so maybe both sides are correct or wrong in thinking they're doing OK, depending on how you look at it);

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:44 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Connecting feels better than the capture, the aji at the nose and ladder breaker aji doesn't seem great enough to seriously consider the capture. So, my guess is F3 next for Black.

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:55 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[hide]Now we see if white plays along.

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:55 pm
by skydyr
Incidentally, what is komi for this game? 6.5?

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:52 pm
by topazg
Yeah, that was the plan I thought - we nigiri'd after all :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 9 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's see what he has in mind..

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:13 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 9 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We agreed on komi, but not a specific amount, so I just wanted to double check. In the interest of full disclosure, I accidentally opened your hide tag for the last post while trying to copy the diagram.

[hide]So here's my thinking:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . M X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 6 . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to sacrifice the original approach stone to stabilize both my groups while ideally leaving aji in the bottom left corner and securing the bottom right. The key idea is to approach at 5, which also keeps white from breaking the ladder at the marked point while destabilizing the black group.

My original thought was to come out with a one space jump, but I think that hurts the stone on the left, and the catenaccio joseki is not played much for a reason. I also thought about a keima to E5, but I think black needs the side stone to be on the 4th line for these to coordinate well.

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:08 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time to see if I can overconcetrate Black a bit on the left, and help deal with some of Black's wall at the same time. It's possibly optimistic, and all depends how Black responds on the left side.

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:37 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[hide]I feel like I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop...

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:17 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:27 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #186 - topazg vs. skydyr

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:40 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For beginners

Hmmm, didn't expect that. This is very nice for White. As a fairly cast iron rule, a point that both players want and both players would respond to if the opponent got there first is very urgent. This is a key shape point for both sides, as now Black's group is vulnerable due to the cut, and White's shape is rock solid. The change of points in this corner is not only large, but it's virtually White's sente too. Very happy here :)
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