Life In 19x19

I wonder if this water metaphor is about the natural 'flow' of the game.

Something like "Keep playing naturally and your influence will naturally build better results for you over time"?

As a side note, I've been ditching solid territory for superior influence recently. It's done wonders against weaker players, but I fall apart against stronger ones.

Yes, many good advices here.

Play offline or don't play more than 2-3 games in a row. Focus on creating balance in game. Try to develop style that focus on longterm win and/or study players with quieter/patient style, such as Takagawa Kaku, younger Lee Changho, Otake Hideo, Qiu Jun & Park Yeong-hun. Learn to be comfortable being behind until endgame. Focus more on winning during endgame. Increase endgame problem study. Or set clock-timer goals.

Phoenix wrote:As a side note, I've been ditching solid territory for superior influence recently. It's done wonders against weaker players, but I fall apart against stronger ones.

Good for you : )

Yes, because by the time you reach such stronger players they will know how to counter influence, so then finding balance and being flexible becomes even more important.

This game by Takemiya sensei is one of his masterpieces. He of course goes for influence, but when his opponent tries to deny him this, then his flexible and deep strength truly emerges. Top/right exchange, then fighting that begins on left are highlights of the game. White 42 is grand move.


Another masterpiece example is of Takagawa Kaku. He was famous for saying, "Flowing water does not fight what lies ahead." In this game, you can see how Sakata tries to upset Takagawa's stones repeatedly, but Takagawa quashes his attempts each time moving continuously into different parts of the board, like "flowing water."

Phoenix wrote:I wonder if this water metaphor is about the natural 'flow' of the game.

Maybe, but what is "natural flow"?

Keep playing naturally

What does this mean?

***

Of course, I have my guess: "Always play the move having the greatest per move value." However, is this what "following the flow of the water" and "following the natural flow" mean?

logan wrote:moving continuously into different parts of the board, like "flowing water."

So you'd say that "flowing like water" is nothing more than "tenuki"?

RobertJasiek wrote:

logan wrote:moving continuously into different parts of the board, like "flowing water."

So you'd say that "flowing like water" is nothing more than "tenuki"?

I think it might have to do more with recognizing and maintaining miai for your groups, and having all your stones working on the same plan. A sort of "he prevents me from making points here, but the consequence is that I can make more there, so I can take it easy."

Robert: i ignore all your post and comment because i do not wish to engage in endless argument with you.
I WILL SAY IT AGAIN: "DO NOT QUOTE MY COMMENTS OR COMMENTS RELATED TO MY COMMENT."

skydyr wrote:having all your stones working on the same plan. A sort of "he prevents me from making points here, but the consequence is that I can make more there

Now, this offers meaning. However, I am not convinced that "flowing like water" etc. would have this and only this and not possibly some very other meaning.

Magicwand wrote:Robert: i ignore all your post and comment

For someone "ignoring" all my posts you reply frequently.

"DO NOT QUOTE MY COMMENTS OR COMMENTS RELATED TO MY COMMENT."

Not you decide what I write - I decide what I write.

RobertJasiek wrote:

Magicwand wrote:Robert: i ignore all your post and comment

For someone "ignoring" all my posts you reply frequently.

"DO NOT QUOTE MY COMMENTS OR COMMENTS RELATED TO MY COMMENT."

Not you decide what I write - I decide what I write.

i am not going to argue this with you...but i will mentor you on life and society (personal attack deleted by admin).
it is not what you decide. It is what admin decide. I will let them make a decision and keep kool~~

ADMIN: Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum.

Magicwand wrote:i am not going to argue this with you...but i will mentor you on life and society since you lack that skills considerablely.
it is not what you decide. It is what admin decide. I will let them make a decision and keep kool~~

kool -> cool

I read often that Honinbo Shuei's play 'flows like water'. Perhaps I will retire to my zen space and replay his games on a board until an epiphany strikes from the heavens.

Phoenix wrote:I read often that Honinbo Shuei's play 'flows like water'. Perhaps I will retire to my zen space and replay his games on a board until an epiphany strikes from the heavens.

Ah, another brethren on the same path. Welcome my brother.

Phoenix wrote:I read often that Honinbo Shuei's play 'flows like water'. Perhaps I will retire to my zen space and replay his games on a board until an epiphany strikes from the heavens.

I've certainly heard of his play having a strong component of maintaining miai in any situation, which may mean the same thing.

RobertJasiek wrote:

logan wrote:moving continuously into different parts of the board, like "flowing water."

So you'd say that "flowing like water" is nothing more than "tenuki"?

Were it only that simple! Probably it's necessary to think more holistically about Takagawa's style. Sakata liked to take kikashi early, fix postiions, and knock his opponents down with sharp fighting. Takagawa liked to keep his kikashi in reserve. It would seem this is related to his ability to make territorial exchanges later in the game. That's my opinion. I haven't seen proof of that with respect to other players or theory in general.

So to acheive that, it's not just tenuki, because a lot of tenukis incur a global loss. I think to play that way, you have to have superb positional judgement, otherwise your trades will lose points. Your water will be flowing, but it will just be flowing off a cliff.

You can look at Nie Weiping, too. He dislikes all-or-nothing positions and is often cited as a good example for balance.

Flowing like water has also been used for playing styles very different from that. It is interesting to study Takagawa's playing style etc., but flowing like water must, if anything, be something more general.