Life In 19x19

One important issue is recognizing the limits of one's own knowledge. A 10kyu who recognizes that there's a lot he doesn't even know he doesn't know is probably a better teacher than a 5dan who says things like "my games are as good as Takemiya's" and doesn't have a good grasp of the language he's trying to write in.

billywoods wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.

No? Feel free to explain why my question was so stupid.

This topic comes up quite frequently, and is highly debated. Many feel that there are differences between how Asians and Westerners think and learn. While many others feel there are no differences and should be banned for broaching such racially charged topics, further dividing our community on this old debate.

xed_over wrote:[..] Many feel that there are differences between how Asians and Westerners think and learn. While many others feel there are no differences and should be banned for broaching such racially charged topics, further dividing our community on this old debate.

I understand you’re just trying to show two perspectives, but … “racially charged”?

IMNSHO it has got nothing to do with the obsolete concept of “race” but rather with cultural differences which encompass a LOT: education, philosophical imprinting, priorities, etc.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

billywoods wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:they know how Western players think.

I hope you don't mind me taking a brief detour from the topic and asking - what is the difference between Western and Asian players?

Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.

I haven't seen Jiang Jujo 9p for a few years, but back then he told me that when he first came to the U. S. he would tell players something, and to his surprise they would ask why. Players back home did not do that. Jujo adapted how he teaches, and feels that he is a better teacher because of that.

I'd be willing to bet a good author could start with no knowledge at all of Go and produce a reasonable book, just by reviewing the existing literature and reorganizing and re-communicating it. The combinatorics of Go is impressive, but pales besides the word choice and organizational decisions in a book. Sometimes a fresh presentation of existing ideas is all it takes to spark new thoughts in readers' minds. I wouldn't expect a perfect book, although sometimes a misguided claim by an author can be just as useful, as it pushes you to figure out why he's wrong.

They certainly couldn't produce, say, a book of professional game reviews, but a discussion of concepts and strategic principles interlaced with simple examples seems feasible.

What I've found is that in any topic it's rare to find somebody with deep, accurate knowledge. But if you're willing to sift through good and bad ideas, you can find little gems of insight are held by most people in this world.

The eastern vs western way of learning Go is complicated by the fact that westerners who learn go are much more likely to be adults. There is lots of literature on how adults learn differently than children, and good teachers take this into account.

While I agree about not needing to be incredibly strong to write a good book, I don't agree that Berlekamp's book is a good one for people wanting to get stronger at Go.

I also would advise against writing books that have an encyclopedic tone, or that try to cram a million ideas into a few pages - this is not how learning takes place. If you are a strong player but don't recognize this, you will fail as an author IMO.

Polama wrote:I'd be willing to bet a good author could start with no knowledge at all of Go and produce a reasonable book, just by reviewing the existing literature and reorganizing and re-communicating it. The combinatorics of Go is impressive, but pales besides the word choice and organizational decisions in a book. Sometimes a fresh presentation of existing ideas is all it takes to spark new thoughts in readers' minds. I wouldn't expect a perfect book, although sometimes a misguided claim by an author can be just as useful, as it pushes you to figure out why he's wrong.

They certainly couldn't produce, say, a book of professional game reviews, but a discussion of concepts and strategic principles interlaced with simple examples seems feasible.

What I've found is that in any topic it's rare to find somebody with deep, accurate knowledge. But if you're willing to sift through good and bad ideas, you can find little gems of insight are held by most people in this world.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1523
Maybe you are thinking of a go book like this one.

Polama wrote:I'd be willing to bet a good author could start with no knowledge at all of Go and produce a reasonable book, just by reviewing the existing literature and reorganizing and re-communicating it. The combinatorics of Go is impressive, but pales besides the word choice and organizational decisions in a book. Sometimes a fresh presentation of existing ideas is all it takes to spark new thoughts in readers' minds. I wouldn't expect a perfect book, although sometimes a misguided claim by an author can be just as useful, as it pushes you to figure out why he's wrong.

How this has worked out in practice, it seems to me, is via a partnership between a good writer, such as a journalist, and an expert. The journalist alone cannot, as a rule, do a good enough job of communicating what he does not understand. You see this with science journalism all the time. You need an expert to review, edit, and correct. (A lot of Asian go books are ghosted by amateur dans. How much the pro is involved varies, I am sure. )

I think that the successful amateur go authors don't operate in a void. They have ready access to professionals and sometimes those professionals have contributed enough new content or enough in terms of review to be credited as co-authors. I can't speak for other players / consumers, but I'm more likely to buy a book if it has at least been reviewed by a professional. That way I can have a little more confidence that there are fewer glaring errors in it and that what is presented is at least vaguely consistent with professional thinking. It's a not a 100% guarantee, of course, because there is no way of knowing how thorough the pro's review of a book's contents is, and some errors slip thorough even in the most famous amateur / pro collaborations.

A lot of amateur books written for English-speaking audiences are really just organizing materials that are available elsewhere. Bozulich certainly freely borrows from materials previously published in Japanese.

So IMHO, it's not solely about the strength of the main author. It's about what the author has done to make sure the content is of high quality, and that often involves collaboration.

mhlepore wrote:The eastern vs western way of learning Go is complicated by the fact that westerners who learn go are much more likely to be adults. There is lots of literature on how adults learn differently than children, and good teachers take this into account.

There are also a lot of people in the East who learn the game when they're retired, so it is a bit of a mix.

Another difference is that in the East you can fairly easily learn from other people in the area. In the West, many people are picking up these books and trying to learn themselves.

I imagine a lot of early western authors simply borrowed* material from oriental (CJKT) works.
Those that didn't (from memory) usually produced flawed work.

*not in the straight copying sense, but in the normal, read, digest, regurgitate sense

Um...Javaness, I was wondering if I might ask you to return my ...um..uh... nevermind.

I think that everyone is allowed to write a book about something that is supposed to be fun. I mean, it's not that these people are writing books about the necessary safety features of nuclear power plants sold to security officials

ropottnik wrote:I think that everyone is allowed to write a book about something that is supposed to be fun. I mean, it's not that these people are writing books about the necessary safety features of nuclear power plants sold to security officials

Being allowed to write a (good) book and being able to write one are different things.

If you have the money, you can always afford to publish your own go book even if you have no idea how to play go, but looking for an established publisher to be interested in such a book would be difficult.