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Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:17 pm
by Mef
hyperpape wrote: I have the same problem, that I feel like this joseki is so solid and leaves nothing to aim at.
One thing to remember is that you got to choose your approach, and end in sente (in this thread's case twice!). If white is already willing to give you that much, it's hard to expect too squeeze too much more out of it in the future. That's why I'd subscribe to the camp that says to build more elsewhere and see if white can catch up. I don't think white will be eager to add yet another move on the left side. If white ends up jumping into black's right side, black can use an attack on those stones to build strength to jump into the left.
Re:
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:50 am
by Sumatakyo
Thank you all for the feedback. This gives me some ideas and confirms that my invasion was... too greedy
EdLee wrote:
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Also, why the
-
exchange if you were going to jump in afterwards?
Without the
-
exchange, maybe you could even jump into (a) ?[/hide]J
I don't like it when White pushes at g5 because it flatens me and it's sente, but it did complicate the invasion a bit...
Magicwand wrote: This is better
$$Bc Reduction post probe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe.I like this or something around G10/H10, but I'm wondering about the follow-up.
For example, I feel the following sequence would still be difficult for me to handle. The moyo looks even bigger now, but black needs to answer. Or is this bad for white? (My counting is horrible...)
$$Bc Reduction post probe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe.mitsun wrote: You have a choice between reduction and invasion. Reduction is appropriate when you calculate that you will have enough territory to win if your opponent takes the offer to consolidate his (reduced) moyo without a fight.
...
Playing at the boundary of mutual moyos is a similar option, which might be better in this particular position. You reduce your opponents moyo while expanding your own moyo. Again you need to count to see if this gives you enough territory to win.
$$ Boundary
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ BoundaryAs a mid/high level dan what is your opinion on this exchange. As I just mentioned my counting is horrible, but this appears very difficult for black because the right side appears easy to invade, whereas the white left side is solid territory (maybe 50-60 points?), and it's white turn.
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:05 am
by EdLee
Sumatakyo wrote: For example, I feel the following sequence would still be difficult for me to handle.
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BMaybe you want to take care of
instead of replying at (a).
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:51 am
by Magicwand
i think you misunderstand my point
when i said that
$$Bc Reduction post probe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Reduction post probe.is better.
i was comparing two and this other diag was inferior to this.
i think above move is really bad..but still better than your suggestion.
therefore your suggestion is not worth considerting. <---this was my point.
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:24 pm
by Sumatakyo
My point was that I wasn't sure what to do after plunking a stone in the middle of the board.
Looking at Edlee's reply, I guess I need to simply jump out and leave the stones at the top because they are pretty much alive.
I have received many ideas, so the next step is to apply them in game
Off to a Goldfish exhibition in Osaka now, thanks for the help again peeps!
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:39 pm
by EdLee
Sumatakyo wrote: Off to a Goldfish exhibition in Osaka now
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:14 am
by Magicwand
dont need to defend there. 9 would be wrong move because white will attack from other side..
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:37 am
by SmoothOper
Magicwand wrote: dont need to defend there. 9 would be wrong move because white will attack from other side..
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.what about either of the red triangles?
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:18 am
by Shaddy
SmoothOper wrote: Magicwand wrote: dont need to defend there. 9 would be wrong move because white will attack from other side..
$$c This is a label for the diagram.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.what about either of the red triangles?
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c It's hard for black to aim at anything because cutting White means making this cut in his own position possible. It does become more complicated, and there might be something Black can do in the corner, but this doesn't feel good to me.
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:41 am
by Mef
Shaddy wrote: $$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c It's hard for black to aim at anything because cutting White means making this cut in his own position possible. It does become more complicated, and there might be something Black can do in the corner, but this doesn't feel good to me.
$$Wc The Taisha, W11 at the marked point.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc The Taisha, W11 at the marked point. To me, the basic shape feels similar to what you might see out of the taisha...though black is getting pushed lower on top. Also white has an extra stone hanging around at A.
Re: I dislike Tsuke-nobi Joseki... What about you?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:55 pm
by Uberdude
You might like to follow this OGS game of mine I'm playing in which my opponent played tsuke-nobi joseki to see how I deal with it. I am pretty sure it is a mistake but not a major one. Of course he is a lot weaker than me so when, as seems likely, I win perhaps you can't deduce so much from it due to me playing better elsewhere.
http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=398803
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exchange if you were going to jump in afterwards?
instead of replying at (a).
