Life In 19x19

oren wrote:Useless answer, but why not get normal glass stones? I keep reading about these weird things happening to yunzi stones. I have had glass stones chip, but that has been really rare.

When I started to look into Go gear, yunzi stones kept on coming back in discussions as nice ones in terms of tactile feel and weight. And on top of that they did look very nice in the various shots that I saw, so I thought it could be worthy investment. And now that I have them, indeed, I think they look great and it's very nice to play with them.

amphipoda wrote:When I started to look into Go gear, yunzi stones kept on coming back in discussions as nice ones in terms of tactile feel and weight. And on top of that they did look very nice in the various shots that I saw, so I thought it could be worthy investment. And now that I have them, indeed, I think they look great and it's very nice to play with them.

I guess it is a personal thing. My opinion is plastic->yunzi->glass->slate and shell.

Since it's fairly easy to find reasonable glass sets, I'm surprised yunzi is so sought after. I've also found all the issues brought up about these types of stones on the board to be surprising.

Going slightly astray …

I’d like to mention that I have the impression that many if not most of the western Go shops are not big professional vendors but rather Go enthusiasts who are in it in order to spread Go and help the Go Scene get easier access to playing materials and books.

Of Hebsacker Verlag in Germany I know that they are exactly two people (Steffi Hebsacker and her husband Tobias Berben), and to make a living they have “normal” jobs (plus kids). So … I think they are more in it for the love of Go and to support the German/European Go community than for the money.

Yutopian in the US, IIRC, also consists of only two people (or was it just one person?), and I have read several threads regarding a somewhat difficult communication with them … delayed replies, sometimes sending wrong parcels etc., but usually eager to compensate.

I write this not to be apologetic about whatever may have happened with any of the mentioned suppliers but rather to explain why some interactions with these smaller vendors sometimes can be somewhat difficult, and that they really don’t get rich by supplying the Go communities with their so urgently needed materials, I guess the margin is rather narrow if one knows that they have to invest larger amounts of money for quantity imports to be able to offer anything at all.

Yellow Mountain imports sells top-up packs (10 stones of each colour). If they have the same size, you could look into that.

amphipoda wrote:The thing that annoys me here is the fact that it was, for me, a much bigger investment than just getting plastic, wood or glass stones and that I feel a bit like a sucker with an incomplete set.

I completely agree with you. Broken/chipped/missing/deformed stones are something to be expected by the producer, not the customer. It's a completely trivial issue from the point of view of go-playing, but throws the vendor into a bad light: you paid for 180+181 stones, and whether/why you need them is entirely up to you, because 180+181 is what you should get. I would expect any vendor to take it as seriously as a chess set with a broken piece or a book with a missing page, purely to keep customers happy. I'd be unhappy too.

billywoods wrote:[..] I'd be unhappy too.

Yes, I’d probably also shed a tear.

I can't understand why they can't just ship an additional 4 stones of the correct colour for you.

It would make sense as a supplier if you are doing a reasonable-ish volume of sets to have a full spare set of Whites and Blacks to send off in bits and pieces to those with problems purely out of the goal of customer satisfaction.

I don't know what the laws are where you're from, but in the UK, equipment arriving not complete or broken leaves you entitled to a full refend whether they like it or not (and that's outside of statutory distance selling regulations - again in UK law).

topazg wrote:[..] in the UK, equipment arriving not complete or broken leaves you entitled to a full refend whether they like it or not (and that's outside of statutory distance selling regulations - again in UK law).

Similar in Germany.

Plus, you can return any internet purchase within 14 days without giving any reason. (Of course within reasonable boundaries, this wouldn’t work for underwear you’ve used meanwhile )

See Hebsacker’s TOS page for how they handle things http://www.hebsacker-verlag.de/conditions.php and contact them again, they’re actually nice people.

amphipoda wrote:It's actually with your post that I learned about this shop and decided to order there.

I did post that I received 179 of each in my other post about that buy. Maybe if you had read that you would have seen it as normal, wouldn't have cared and you'd be happier now.

While it may be true that they're technically liable for the stones, I guess I just figure it's not really worth the hassle on either end for "the principle of the thing"

I also got Yunzi's a while back and I also had a few broken ones, though almost none have broken since. I don't think I would have felt bothered unless the numbers got down to 150-160 each or the like, at which point you have to make lots of prisoner exchanges.

(And I love them, there's something wonderful about the finality of the single-convex snap. It's a very simple "the move is completed", not a shuddering "The hand of god is mine." The matte finish also just doesn't draw as much attention as shiny glass or clamshell. They're great because they don't distract at all)

Dear amphipoda,

amphipoda wrote:The thing that annoys me here is the fact that it was, for me, a much bigger investment than just getting plastic, wood or glass stones and that I feel a bit like a sucker with an incomplete set.

you should have told us about it! We did not know that we've produced such an anger. Normally, it is really not a kind of a problem to have only about 180 stones of one colour. I play Go for about 30 years now and I've played a lot - and only ONE time I really needed a full set of 180 stones per colour. But if it is really a problem for you, we of course send you some replacement stones, NO PROBLEM, really! Send us an email with the number of stones you need per colour to get a set of 181 black and 180 white stones. We will send them as soon as possible!

And for later problems, we of course also offer top-up packs of glass and yunzi stones.

Kind regards, Tobias Berben (Hebsacker Verlag)

I expect that saying this might upset some people, but in my experience it's mainly Japanese and Western people who really care a lot about there being precisely 181/180 stones in a set.

It's quite rare for a game to go for more than 300 moves, so being able to cover the whole board with stones is sort of overkill, especially if you play with Chinese rules.

A lot of cheaper sets from China and Korea don't even have 180 stones, but 160 instead. For example this one: http://shop.gogameguru.com/go-bento-box/ and various glass and plastic sets that I've had in the past.

I've found that most Chinese and Korean people really don't care how many stones there are in a set as long as there are 'enough'. They're more interested in just playing Go and the stones are a means to an end. The exception to this is when buying an expensive set of slate and shell stones (or stones some other expensive material like agate), because in that case you're paying for quality and that usually involves the service of having 181/180 stones carefully counted out.

I've had the experience of asking both Korean and Chinese manufacturers about whether there were 180 stones for cheaper sets and was treated like an idiot both times. (note that Yunzi are Chinese stones)

Normally if someone tells me they've received a new set with some stones broken on arrival I'll send them new ones as a service, but in Hebsacker Verlag's defense they seem to have fairly cheap packs of replacement stones on their site (I've just been looking at it), which is a good idea for later.

I used to sell Yunzi (before starting Go Game Guru) and they do seem to be more brittle than other glass stones, and hence break more easily during shipping. It's also quite possible that single convex stones break more easily because the shape isn't as strong.

EDIT: Oh, Hebsacker Verlag replied with a link to those stones while I was writing this

I have had very good experiences with Hebsacker concerning after buying service. On one occasion, I orderd several books, but one was missing and one I got I didn't order. I phoned with them and they were very understanding. The next day I got my send-back package, and the book I ordered the day after.

p2501 wrote:I have had very good experiences with Hebsacker concerning after buying service. On one occasion, I orderd several books, but one was missing and one I got I didn't order. I phoned with them and they were very understanding. The next day I got my send-back package, and the book I ordered the day after.

We normally try our best, be sure about that!
We love the game, not the money - otherwise we would not do the job ...

Kind regards, Tobias Berben

gogameguru wrote:
I've had the experience of asking both Korean and Chinese manufacturers about whether there were 180 stones for cheaper sets and was treated like an idiot both times. (note that Yunzi are Chinese stones)

I recently bought a set of Korean glass stones, and there were more than 180 Black ones, and less than 180 white ones. Nonetheless, when I put them into my bowls, not all of the white ones fit, so the set I now use has about 180 black stones and 160 white ones - so that they look good in the bowls. :p

amphipoda wrote:And now that I have them, indeed, I think they look great and it's very nice to play with them.

Pictures!