Shinkenjoe vs Free Time

[schawipp]

A few small remarks to your last posted game:

On move 26 I would just solidify the corner with D17 and ask the single black stone, what he wants there. If he tries to escape you will take profit in the corner and on upper side; if not it's also no problem


Regarding your "punishment" in the upper right corner, I think it works if you made the solid connection on O16 instead of N16:

$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$W If b plays this way there is indeed a "liberty problem"
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W If b plays this way there is indeed a "liberty problem"
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$W If b solidifies, Q15 can be captured in a ladder (if it works...)
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W If b solidifies, Q15 can be captured in a ladder (if it works...)
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$W With the loose connection b can atari on move 4; bad result for w
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 6 . . |
$$ . . . O 5 O 3 X . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W With the loose connection b can atari on move 4; bad result for w
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X 6 . . |
$$ . . . O 5 O 3 X . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Edit: The corner positions were all shifted by one line...

[Shinkenjoe]

A few small remarks to your last posted game:

On move 26 I would just solidify the corner with D17 and ask the single black stone, what he wants there. If he tries to escape you will take profit in the corner and on upper side; if not it's also no problem

Y that would be definitely better than my having to tenuki two times and get him all secure and everything, cause there was no reasonable move there.

$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'd be happy as black with this. My corner is safe and all is connected and strong.
And white gets almost zero: he shfits potentially territory somewhat, but only occupies dame points and the influence of 3 is cancelled by the strengthening of blacks extension.

$$W Josekipedia says:
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Josekipedia says:
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

[jts]

But if you're happy with this,

$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Wouldn't you be happier if B played as in the next diagram, leaving the weakness at 'a' ...?

$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 a . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W W could press black further down this way
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 a . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This looks like B has just learned to play go. But in fact, this is the joseki you showed. The joseki just shows s14 exchanged for s16 already. If you can be happy with the first diagram, you should be even happier with the joseki.

[Shinkenjoe]

Wouldn't you be happier if B played as in the next diagram, leaving the weakness at 'a' ...?

As White yes, as black not. I dont quite get what your aiming at.

$$W Joseki continued
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Joseki continued
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

And a is a sente possibility to make the weakness dangerous. As in the game i already had a stone in that area it -

All this is not possible in your first diagram.

After looking at these josekis they dont look much different than what was played in the game- I guess there is some move order opportunity fo black to thwart this line, if white cuts at first (like in game), but i would have to study that more. Also could be that it's just better in terms of ko threat usefullness.

[Shinkenjoe]

arg edit war.

[jts]

Ah, okay, I see the confusion. I thought your comments ("that would be better," "I'd be happy as black with this") were referring to the diagrams below the comment, but actually you were critiquing schawipp's suggestion and understand perfectly well why the joseki is better.

As you say, your result in the game (at 53) strengthens B's corner compared to joseki, but since you can still get a result similar to the joseki on the right side, you don't need to be too upset.