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#217 EdLee vs. Amelia

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8425

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Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:40 pm
by Unusedname
@Phoenix

If Black double approaches can't white kill the 3-4 stone?

Then suddenly black's pincer is too close to thickness and will be attacked.

While the 4-4 stone can survive a double approach, even a triple approach.

Regardless of that, if both the 3-4 black stone and the 4-4 white stone die, then black has one bad move too close to thickness where as white has no bad moves.

I think.

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:05 am
by Amelia
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 1:31 am
by imaponuki
According to EidoGo, :w8: is good for black, if he knew how to punish it. The second variation would get pretty messy for DDK though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 0 . . X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O O X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re:

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:08 am
by TIM82
Taking back a few moves, pincers weren't the only option. To me the most intuitive continuation is 1-4 below, then either continuing with A if you are sure of getting sente (and use sente to play B), or just directly B. White seems quite busy: bottom right three stones would like to get some strengthtening, but it seems advisable to respond to the double approach in bottom left first, and black may well take sente from there to harrass the three stones in bottom right...

Disclaimer: above contains no book knowledge, just opinions.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . a 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:07 am
by Phoenix
Unusedname wrote:@Phoenix

If Black double approaches can't white kill the 3-4 stone?

Then suddenly black's pincer is too close to thickness and will be attacked.

While the 4-4 stone can survive a double approach, even a triple approach.

Regardless of that, if both the 3-4 black stone and the 4-4 white stone die, then black has one bad move too close to thickness where as white has no bad moves.

I think.


I felt like the double approach would be equivalent in this case, though this isn't backed up by much analysis. Now that you mention it however the lone Black stone in the middle of the right side is vulnerable, which would make the corner-for-double-approach exchange not so good. And Black doesn't have such an effect for his extra approach stone. White could still extend down the left side or at the top as miai after the bottom-left corner is resolved.

That combined with the fact that White seems to be setting the pace this early is making me revise my opinion. Besides Black's approach stone in the lower left is working, as White will need to answer at some point. :mrgreen:


TIM82 wrote:
Taking back a few moves, pincers weren't the only option. To me the most intuitive continuation is 1-4 below, then either continuing with A if you are sure of getting sente (and use sente to play B), or just directly B. White seems quite busy: bottom right three stones would like to get some strengthtening, but it seems advisable to respond to the double approach in bottom left first, and black may well take sente from there to harrass the three stones in bottom right...

Disclaimer: above contains no book knowledge, just opinions.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . a 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Unfortunately for Black, White has a lot of options to try and take sente in this sequence. However if you consider the difference in rank, Amelia could indeed use this to build influence on the bottom while White expands on the right. The difference being Black has an approach stone already in place in the bottom-left, and the option of extending along the right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 0 . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Here White takes sente with :w8: (if :b7: at :b9: , White plays :w8: at :b7: ), then attaches at :w10: to make Black overconcentrated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . X X O b . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O 1 . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


After the tsuke-osae joseki, Black can take sente to extend to :b17: . This move of course restrains White's influence on the right side, and also lessens the value of an approach around a as well as a san-san invasion. I like Black in this case despite the result on the bottom ( :b5: can be under :b1: instead, but this helps if White tries to build a moyo on the left later). I would consider attaching at b miai with an extension along the top. Like always, there are a lot of variations to take into account as well.

Of course the game has already taken a different course. I'm fairly sure EdLee will opt for the simple, effective method that is building a wall to attack the lone stone on the right.

The bottom line is that if she can keep her groups safe, a battle of influence and territory offers more of a chance against EdLee than, say, a slugfest. :)

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:05 am
by Amelia
Thinking about my next move after this sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O d , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . a b X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


a feels most natural, taking territory at the bottom and jumping ahead. However it leaves weaknesses behind

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O 6 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 2 X X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like back's shape much

b is safer but pushes the cart from behind. It feels too slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 2 O O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


One way to give myself better shape is to push first, preferably in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O 1 a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It leaves a forcing move for white at a but now white is the one with a cutting point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . b X X a X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This takes points in the corner and robes white of a potential base there but I'm not sure it is sente and white can still push me around at a and b, even though my stones are a bit safer.

At the moment I feel like playing this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . 3 . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The invasion at a doesn't cause me any concern as long as white doesn't reply to my approach move, so I doubt Ed would play it. This board looks fine enough to me.
I will need to think it over.

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:59 am
by Phoenix
Some of us will remember this joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . b X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This is the regular continuation, and it nets Black sente. It's interesting how :b1: is a point Amelia did not so much as consider. At the end of the sequence, the marked Black stone is in an awkward and vulnerable position, but it's hard to decide whether to play between it and the UR corner stone or a double approach at a. Both areas are miai for White, but White's a would work well with a later bend at b.

I've just woken up, so let me know if my little analysis is deficient. :mrgreen:

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:02 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 1 O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:04 pm
by EdLee
Very nice to study the many variations in Ishida and Takao, thanks to Amelia.

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:39 pm
by Amelia
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:03 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm12
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:07 am
by EdLee
Rejected the cut variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 2 O O 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 1 B X 3 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 0 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 X O O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:10 am
by EdLee
Earlier, for :w10:, rejected the cross-cut, messy variations, even though W can fight despite the ladder.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 2 O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re:

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:30 am
by Phoenix
EdLee wrote:
Earlier, for :w10:, rejected the cross-cut, messy variations, even though W can fight despite the ladder.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 2 O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 7 2 O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 1 X 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I don't get EdLee's "messy variations" and "despite the ladder" comments. :scratch:

Re: #217 EdLee vs. Amelia

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:44 am
by Amelia
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After playing around with all sorts of sequences with the general idea of further extending on the side, I decided that it was too low to keep crawling at this point. I'd rather do this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O O b , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . d . . a X X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I figure after this white would normally love to have a stone at the marked place but will not have one. I take points in the corner and on the side. If Ed plays around a I'll push at b to fix my shape, if he plays at c I'll play at d and vice versa.
All times are UTC-07:00
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