Life In 19x19

Splatted wrote:I think what matters most is how you approach the game. If you view blitz games as an excuse to play the first thing that comes in to your head it's not going to be that helpful, but if you use it to force yourself to concentrate I think it could be very helpful. In games with longer time limits it's easy to procrastinate or waste time daydreaming etc, but in shorter games you need every second so if you're serious about it you're constantly pushing your reading to the limit and your opponent's time becomes a welcome opportunity to consider other areas of the board.

I play twenty moves per ten minutes, which is convenient because I don't have to find and challenge players, and I agree that time management and pushing the limits is necessary, on the other hand there are skills that just never get developed, for example whole board positional judgement and counting.

I think the ideal way to train would be start out on very long games and work towards faster times.

wineandgolover wrote:

Shaddy wrote:I only played blitz in between KGS 6k and 2d. If blitz did not help my improvement, then it must have been faeries.

This is the first pro-blitz argument that I actually buy. It proves that it can work for some (well at least one).

Did you review your games to find the mistakes? Perhaps this is where the greatest value/time is?

What else did you do to improve? Still not buying the faeries.

I looked over my games briefly afterwards - although I don't think this was very useful, because the sequences I considered were not good. I did look up any joseki I got tripped up by, so that it would not happen again. At some point, I decided to learn to remember my games to be able to play them back a few minutes afterward, which I did. I probably looked over a small number (<30) of professional games - no thinking, just clicked through them. I did some tsumego - really basic ones from Graded Go Problems for Kyu Players and green and blue Lee Changho books. I picked up tesuji from... somewhere, I don't remember where.

A funny thing I did, which I haven't seen anyone else mention - I knew this one trick for the 4-5 that worked almost every time on 5-6k players, and at least half the time on 4k players. I played 4-5 every single game and caught them in the trick, which gives you a large wall and them a small corner. So I learned to use walls, and until I was 2k I'd make a big moyo every game, and stake the game on whether or not I could kill the invasion.

@Ed: I was 15-16.

wineandgolover wrote:

Shaddy wrote:I only played blitz in between KGS 6k and 2d. If blitz did not help my improvement, then it must have been faeries.

This is the first pro-blitz argument that I actually buy. It proves that it can work for some (well at least one).

It doesn't prove anything. We haven't observed the counter-factual scenario in which Shaddy studied by playing slower games at that point in his development. Who is to say that Shaddy wouldn't be 8 dan now if he had taken a different approach?

The only thing we can prove from Shaddy's experience is that playing blitz alone does not preclude one from becoming 2 dan. The experience does not say whether blitz helps or hurts one's development.

I say just let people do what they want. "Do this" and "do that" sometimes have a way of sucking the fun out.

lemmata wrote:The only thing we can prove from Shaddy's experience is that playing blitz alone does not preclude one from becoming 2 dan. The experience does not say whether blitz helps or hurts one's development.

But like you end up saying, isn't that enough, lemmata? Obviously some people feel an obsessive and futile need to answer the question "what is the absolute best way to improve," but most of us want to answer the question "can I keep on doing what I'm doing now, or do I have to force myself to do things differently?"

If you're asking the second question, you're already giving up on being the absolute best player you could possibly be, but that's ok for a lot of us.

well the viewpoints i've heard from a few of my teachers were as follows:

1. It creates and reinforces bad habits/shapes because you're not thinking out the moves

2. you really shouldn't worry about it until you are about 5d because of fundamentals (probably 5d chinese as i was in china at the time)

it does seem that a lot of the games offered on KGS are all blitz of either 5m 5x10 or even faster, so i'm wondering if it's the way some people think is the best way to improve.

i do remember meeting a kid in china that was aiming to become pro who said she dropped at least 2 stones strength playing fast.

all in all, i've given up on blitz go, it's definitley not a way i'd like to experience the game

often wrote:it does seem that a lot of the games offered on KGS are all blitz of either 5m 5x10 or even faster, so i'm wondering if it's the way some people think is the best way to improve.

Go is a very personal experience, and many people play it simply for fun. Some people have more fun to play fast(er) games. Maybe most people, from what you say.

As for improving...
I think there are various aspects of Go, some of which can maybe be better trained at blitz than in slow games. But to improve at other certain things you need slow games. A healthy mix is best, I would assume.

Same boat as Shaddy, never really played slow games at all.

With respect to kids - I don't know whether people are speaking from experience or repeating "what everyone knows", but the two children I've played with (5 and 10) play very slowly.

I played in a Tournament once entered as a 15kyu. One of my opponents was supposedly the same strength, and was no more than 8-10 years old. A Chinese girl taught by a Chinese Go instructor. This is what her mother told me after the game. I could tell her mother pushed her to do her best in this, and to all extents, the girl was very good already. She played moves far over her strength and tricked me into simple plays many times. The game time was set at a 30 minutes for both sides and though I used nearly 27 minutes of my own time by the end of the game, she had used no more than 5 minutes of her own time. The result however was me winning by a great deal from simple, avoidable mistakes. I know, based on her ability, she could have easily prevented them had she patiently read them out. I would have said she was better then me at Go, but lost to her haphazard speed. We managed to play two more games while we waited for the next round, and I tried to match her speed just to see what happened. The first game, was close, but i won again and sped up further. The last we didnt quite finish, but though close, she might have won. I agree with the above statements, speed is only good once the majority of your fundamentals are habitual, and even then, I feel blitz is more of a sub-category of true Go one should only play once in a while, just to change it up. Not something to be relied upon for study purpouses. Go was, is and always should be a calm, patient conversation between two people and a board, as they share the board to agree upon who get what in negotiation. Not an all out battle to trick one another or hope one makes a few more mistakes than you for the soul satisfaction of a victory. Some of my best games ever played were ones I lost. Blitz is one of the reasons, among many (worst being purely resource based of course. ie not enough professional teachers etc.), I feel that Western Go players aren't getting as strong as Eastern Countries. Nearly all "pure" or "majorly blitz" oriented players that I've asked the question..."why do you think Blitz is so popular on American and European KGS and the like?" tell me the same answer. "I just don't have the time or patience in my schedule to spend an hour on a single game." This is an interesting response given many of the same people will gladly set aside three or more hours a day to play a video game, and have no quarrels with it. Its all in the mentality. Luckily there are many exceptions to this, and they are the people I would like to play. Course, this is purely my own opinion. Blitz players, don't stop doing what your doing. Just don't pick on us for not playing within five seconds if you do have to settle into a "regular" game.

Shaddy, thanks.

jts wrote:With respect to kids - I don't know whether people are speaking from experience or repeating "what everyone knows", but the two children I've played with (5 and 10) play very slowly.

Some kids play fast, some slow. It may depend on how they were taught? I don't know.

I've taught (taught may not be the right word, maybe introduced) a lot of random people, and TD'ed several tournaments : adults, teens and kids. Typically the kids I've seen, play much faster.

So I've seen exactly one pro (a high-dan Korean) that clearly recommended blitz rather than just tolerating it. It was one of those cases where a pro shows up at a U.S. Go Congress for the 1st time, sees the time settings in the U.S. Open, assumes those are typical, and wonders what we thinking in the West. (To be fair, the U.S. Open time settings are slower than many Korean pro tournament settings.)

Anyway, he said that, say, a 5 kyu should play 10 minutes absolute. Shoot for 10 games in 3 hours. (It should be possible considering that in absolute time most of those games won't take up the whole 20 minutes.) He did not say he recommended it for stronger players (though he did not say he did not.)

I actually tried those settings and found them easier than intermediate settings like Canadian 1 minute + 25 stones in 5 minutes that I used to use on IGS a lot. Around that time I decided to drop intermediate settings. Then later I found this interesting comment from one of Dan Heisman's articles on chesscafe.com:

Play as many long time control games as possible (30+5 or, preferably,
slower). Until you are 1700+ FIDE/USCF, avoid intermediate time controls
(ten to thirty minutes per game), which may entrench poor/hasty thought
process habits. Taking your time in slow time control games is an important
step in learning how to analyze moves carefully, comparing various candidate
moves to see which offers the best chance. Playing slowly and consistently
and analyzing and comparing is a necessary part of improving that skill. You
are a better chess player when you learn to chose better moves, so taking your
time and learning to consider move options better is about as important a
skill as you can practice.
3. Once you are past the beginner level, play plenty of speed games mixed in
with the slow games. But make sure to look up your openings in opening
books (databases are not yet as helpful, although they do offer some benefits),
so you don't keep making the same mistakes. At a recent talk at our club,
former U.S. Woman's Champion Jen Shahade also emphasized the
importance of looking up openings after speed games; I just sat and smiled.
Importantly, play speed games with the same increment or time delay as your
important over-the-board tournament games. Failing to do so will train your
brain to think sub-optimally when you run low on time in those important
games. If your important OTB games are played at a thirty second increment,
then perhaps a five second increment for speed games will have to do.

So I thought, hmm. Similar idea. It's not the fastest blitz that's the problem. It's the stuff that's in between your tournament-length games and the fastest blitz that gets people confused. Unfortunately, his comment on consistent increment seems weak, as he immediately pulls back on it.

In favor of blitz, it's definitely one way of testing new openings.

Most of my opponents play much faster than I do, and I still fall badly behind in most of my games.

illluck wrote:Same boat as Shaddy, never really played slow games at all.

But you've played almost 2000 turn-based games on OGS. Do you play your moves there really quickly?

I've been playing a bunch of blitz games recently and I have learned something really amazing that I didn't know before.
Since in blitz it's easy to die and hard to kill (for me at least) I find that killing is not necessary. I can just keep attacking their shape, get loads of influence on the outside of the group and the points come naturally. I don't even have to actively try to use my influence.

I always knew that sealing in a group is something that both players should try, but with the blitz game, my opponents don't have enough time to read how to cut through that influence and they just end up making loads and loads of cuts that I have to quickly read out and defend the best way I can.

So in a sense, it did help me get better a little bit because you can see how certain things develop very very fast.