Life In 19x19

SpongeBob wrote:Playing a slower byo-yomi because of the chance a dropout may occur? You are not serious, are you?

Sure I am serious.
If you know you have bad connection, you don't play fast games. Nothing simpler than this. Your connection is your responsibility, nobody else's, and its up to you to carry that burden. Just like you don't start long games when you know you have limited time.

If, on the other hand, you mean that *you* should play slower game because *he* might drop connection - well, you don't have to. Just play somebody else. The player base is wide enough that you never really have to play a particular person if you don't want to. *He* will just have to find somebody who is agreeable to slower game.

Or were you sarcastic?

Bantari wrote:

hyperpape wrote:Actually, in real life, there isn't a clock. The vast majority of games are played without a clock, with the understanding that players will try to behave.

What that means for timing systems...I don't know.

Unrated club games, you might be correct.
The vast majority of 'rated' games I ever played were with a clock. This includes tournaments and other rated games.

Actually, I'm not so sure. Both clubs I played at had a sort of rating system with relatively low precision. They didn't have a ladder or a mathematical system, but you might have a running handicap with a player, that you adjust up or down whenever someone gets three wins in a row. Or you'd ask "how many stones do you take from bob? he's just as strong as me".

One club was lackadaisical about correct handicaps, and some people always played even. At the other club, I recall that handicaps were very consistently used.

I think KGS ratings are at least as much like a club as like the AGA or EGF ratings. They're more mathematical than club ratings, but the quality of the data is not as good as tournament games.

Bantari wrote:I assumed we were talking about officially rated games. In unrated games, the problem of escapers is much less painful. But maybe I am wrong. Lets hear from the anti-escapers - would they still be so angered by escapers if they only escaped in unrated games?

Anti-escapers often say they're not obsessed with rank, and I somewhat believe them. An unfinished game is like a sour taste in your mouth.

Unfortunately, Japanese and Canadian byo-yomi make it very hard to avoid the risk of timing out during a disconnect without playing incredibly long games.

Another argument for Fischer, I suppose.

billywoods wrote:

skydyr wrote:It's your choice whether you say 'well, that was rude' and move on to the next game, or get angry enough to ruin your afternoon because of something you can't control.

When I go to a go club, I spend money on public transport and then pay a board fee in order to spend a few hours of my precious little free time on a couple of games. Even when playing online, it's very difficult to find an hour and a half of free time to play a proper, full-length game. Of course I'm angry when someone disrespectfully decides it's fine to waste my free time. Aren't you?

Well, there's a big difference in my mind between paying money and traveling to get a game vs. connecting online when I have some free time. That aside, I don't get terribly angry about it online. I played my game for as long as we could. If they're clearly in a losing position, I chalk it up as a win in my mind and let it go. If it's interesting, I often hope they come back to finish it. I've also had people escape from games during the marking of stones, when it was clear they had won. That I just found baffling (the game was unrated). But in all of those, I see it as an opportunity to get on to my next game sooner.

I've never had this exactly happen that I can think of in person. I imagine I'd ask if they were still playing and then if they didn't come back or ignored me, find another game again. I may not want to play them again after, but I still have half a game to think about, or however much. Even if they were behind, I can think about whether it was possible to come back, and how to do it.

hyperpape wrote:Anti-escapers often say they're not obsessed with rank, and I somewhat believe them. An unfinished game is like a sour taste in your mouth.

True... but this sour taste cannot be helped no matter what rules you enforce. There are servers with a very strict escaper policy (even one exactly like the initial proposal - short grace time and escaper loses - like PlayOk.com) - and people still escape. So we are not talking about that here, only about what is actually doable at the server-level.

There is only one way to prevent the 'sour taste' - and its what I have been advocated for years as 'the ultimate escaper solution' - find it in yourself not to let it bother you.

SpongeBob wrote:

Bantari wrote:

SpongeBob wrote:Bantari, I think your solution works as well. But:

Thing is, that when you are on a wireless connection, there can be dropouts which require you to reset your wireless receiver. It can take you 30 s until you are back in the game. If you are already in byo-yomi, this can cause you to lose the game. No big deal, I agree, but I just wanted to point out there is also a drawback with your proposed solution.

Right, but then you only set up games with longer byo-yomi...

Playing a slower byo-yomi because of the chance a dropout may occur? You are not serious, are you?

In the recent YKNOT (Young Kwon National Online Tournament), there are 10 byo-yomi periods (instead of the traditional 3 or 5), specifically to allow for laggy or bad internet connections -- and there were plenty of them.

Maybe the next flavor-of-the-month Go server can offer an in-house therapy department: talk therapy, meditation training, breathing exercises, and other packaged services to promote mental and and emotional well-being.

jts wrote:Rather than cast stones towards KGS , let's get the camel out of our own eye. How are we going to punish escapers in L19 Malkovich games?

Or, dare I say, L19 tournaments?

xed_over wrote:In the recent YKNOT (Young Kwon National Online Tournament), there are 10 byo-yomi periods (instead of the traditional 3 or 5), specifically to allow for laggy or bad internet connections -- and there were plenty of them.

Which server were they playing on?

SpongeBob wrote:

xed_over wrote:In the recent YKNOT (Young Kwon National Online Tournament), there are 10 byo-yomi periods (instead of the traditional 3 or 5), specifically to allow for laggy or bad internet connections -- and there were plenty of them.

Which server were they playing on?

KGS

billywoods wrote:

Splatted wrote:Could someone explain why they hate the KGS escaper policy so much, because I genuinely don't understand why it attracts so much hate. If your opponent is a serial escaper you get the win, so are people just not willing to give the benifit of the doubt to those who only leave the occasional game?

Let me put it this way: if I ran an actual physical go club (and had any control over the matter), anyone who stood up in the middle of a game with anyone else, said nothing, walked away, and sat down to play someone else would be immediately banned (at least until they learnt to be polite). Of course, such people more or less don't exist in real life - nobody would dare to act quite so shamefully, and such people probably quite like go and don't want to be banned. I don't have a problem with the KGS policy so much as I have a problem with any policy that allows people to ruin other people's afternoons essentially with impunity. (That's not to say that there's an obvious solution, though, which is why I usually don't get involved in discussions about escapers. Though I think making it culturally unacceptable to be an escaper, just like it's culturally unacceptable on KGS to play very few weaker players, could perhaps go a long way.)

That would be unnacceptable, but any backlash would be against that person. It would seem absolutely ridculous for the club to respond by banning people from leaving the board during a game.

billywoods wrote:Even when playing online, it's very difficult to find an hour and a half of free time to play a proper, full-length game. Of course I'm angry when someone disrespectfully decides it's fine to waste my free time. Aren't you?

Yes it's a significant investment of time, but that's why it's such a waste for the system to arbitrarily end a game both players want to continue. There is a need to discourage escapers, but I still don't see what's wrong with giving the benefit of the doubt to those who only leave the occasional game (or regularly come back and finish them). To a certain extent I do get where you're coming from. It does allow some bad behaviour, and when someone pisses you off it's very cathartic to see them immediately punished for it, but you know that if they keep acting like that they will lose the right to adjourn games and you will be awarded the win for the game you played against them.

Splatted wrote:It would seem absolutely ridculous for the club to respond by banning people from leaving the board during a game.

Let's not get caught up on details: nobody would want to play that person again afterwards, which is effectively a ban, even if not a formal one.

Splatted wrote:you know that if they keep acting like that they will lose the right to adjourn games and you will be awarded the win for the game you played against them.

Even if the system was to award an immediate loss to anyone who left for any reason (a very harsh system for those who leave for good reasons), it would be a) too lenient on those who escape deliberately for bad reasons, and b) missing the point. I don't want the win - I want to play the game! Thing is, because the punishment is gaining a bad reputation, nobody dares to do it at a club - so why not just mimic that policy online? KGS users who play stronger players very often have their names marked, and then find it difficult to get games with stronger players; why not do this for those who have escaped a few times recently, and let others decide whether to play them or not?

More and more this seems a somewhat KGS exclusive problem, for whatever reason.

SmoothOper wrote:More and more this seems a somewhat KGS exclusive problem, for whatever reason.

I'm going to hypothesize for everyone's consideration that the real problem is that KGS is too good at what it does. Because it doesn't have terrible missing features like no community, broken gamefile export, poor time selection support, or lack of available games, people have to latch onto small nitpicky issues to complain about. Because it has everything except for some small nitpicky things, there will never be enough user motivation to move to a new server. Instead, we will have to endure countless discussions about fischer timing and escaper policy and are doomed to rehash them for all eternity.

skydyr wrote:I'm going to hypothesize for everyone's consideration that the real problem is that KGS is too good at what it does.

As I learned in my job, there are no problems anyway. There are just challenges and potential.