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What Dusk Eagle said applies in these examples too. Having destroyed Black's territory with a single stone, White will not play extra moves, and will just pass while Black plays moves to take it off the board. Since you haven't defined what "dead" stones are, that's what your rules amount to.moyoaji wrote:If you "play it out" under Japanese rules the score is still the same.PaperTiger wrote:"When in doubt, play it out." You haven't defined what a "dead" stone is that can be removed without playing, so your rules are not Japanese rules. I just followed the logic of your rules, as any beginner would.
Move 1 is black pass.
Black has lost 2 points by playing in his own territory, but has captured 2 white stones as well. The score is the same. But perhaps a beginner would not see. It is a more advanced move.
In this case, Black has still killed 2 stones.
The rule of "When in doubt, play it out," means you play it out and then score the game as the board stands. It doesn't mean your ill-defined "White cannot challenge this". Under area scoring this means the score remains the same, and it's an exceedingly clear way to teach beginners.White cannot challenge this as any move he makes is either suicide or removing a point from his side of the board. Black does not need to capture at A5. By the rule of "when in doubt, play it out" white loses because black can simply pass forever and never lose (he has 2 eyes).
That works when you have knowledge of the game and are in a commanding position to do so. It doesn't work when two beginners are playing each other.I even did this once against a friend of mine who didn't want to stop. I commanded almost all of a 9x9 board and then made sure both of my groups had 2 eyes. After this, I got up from the table and told him every move from that point on for me was a pass for me and that he could play as many legal moves has he wanted. I had won no matter what he did.
But you aren't teaching Japanese rules then, like you claimed you wanted to. You're teaching them to play dead stones with forced capture, which is nothing like Japanese rules. You might as well teach area scoring in the first place, either with or without the AGA trick for territory counting.However, let's say the beginner does want to capture. The result is a tie. But I say again, so what? So they end up with a tie in their first game instead of a win they deserved. As long as they play a second game then the first game has served its purpose.
This is ridiculous. Go is a competitive game, and each player naturally wants to try and win under the rules. That drives the learning.I have heard you should lose your first 100 games of go. If you don't, it means you aren't pushing your limits and aren't learning. Your goal in your first games is not to win, but to learn. Winning comes later.
You're going to lose a lot of players with that attitude, if they think the rules aren't competitive.This is not a tournament. Frankly, who wins and who loses doesn't even matter.
This is a form of No Pass Go. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?NoPassGo and http://senseis.xmp.net/?PrisonerReturnGoRo wrote:Thanks for the interesting small examples. I really should take my time to investigate the soundness of my "Bodensee rules" using these examples. There is no "pass" in these rules as the first one unable or unwilling to move agrees that his opponent did make the last move.
The "Bodensee rules" are:
1. You are allowed to play anywhere, but your last stone must be alive(*).
2. Dead stones are to be removed from the board.
3. Never answer a tickling move(**) with another tickling move.
4. Winner ist the one who puts the last stone.
(*) that means that the last stone must not take the last liberty of any of the own stones, and it may be placed in a risky place only if it takes the last liberty of one or more stones of the opponent. A risky place is a point where the stone has no liberty left.
(**) a tickling move is one which is made on a risky place, thereby taking the last liberty of exactly one stone of the opponent.
Only the simple rules 1-4 should be memorized by the newbie. It should be made clear to her in which way "alive" and "tickling" are to be understood. Please take my explanations as the attempt to state beyond doubt what the terms "alive" and "tickling" are meant to mean.
It's up to the teacher to explain these to the newbie in an appropriate way. For little children you will use examples, but for let's say mathematicians it may be possible to let them use (*) and (**) exactly as stated.
Most important, again: there is no "pass" in the "Bodensee rules".
Playing with a mix of German (gemein=mean) and English, the motto is
Play it out else shout:
"How gemein, I resign!"
Cheers,
Rainer
(GoChild GoRo with 1767021 points)
That sounds like you could have seki where there is only one shared liberty instead of two, as in regular go, because whoever plays the shared liberty takes away the last liberty of his own stones.1. You are allowed to play anywhere, but your last stone must be alive(*).
(*) that means that the last stone must not take the last liberty of any of the own stones, and it may be placed in a risky place only if it takes the last liberty of one or more stones of the opponent. A risky place is a point where the stone has no liberty left.
I suppose that by dead stones you mean stones with no liberties at the end of a legal play. What in standard go terminology are called captured stones.2. Dead stones are to be removed from the board.
This would disallow double ko seki.3. Never answer a tickling move(**) with another tickling move.
If the score were still the same, the Japanese '89 rules would settle disputes by actual play instead of by hypothetical play.moyoaji wrote:If you "play it out" under Japanese rules the score is still the same.PaperTiger wrote:"When in doubt, play it out." You haven't defined what a "dead" stone is that can be removed without playing, so your rules are not Japanese rules. I just followed the logic of your rules, as any beginner would.
And how does a beginner know this? Your rules say nothing about killing stones without capturing them.Move 1 is black pass.
Black has lost 2 points by playing in his own territory, but has captured 2 white stones as well. The score is the same. But perhaps a beginner would not see
In this case, Black has still killed 2 stones.
And why is that? Your rules state: "Your score is your territory minus captured stones." They do not say, "Your score is your territory minus stones that your opponent has either captured or killed." Since they say nothing about killing stones without capturing them, the normal inference is that Black must capture the two White stones in order to make territory and to get points for the captured stones.White cannot challenge this as any move he makes is either suicide or removing a point from his side of the board. Black does not need to capture at A5.
is dead as it stands.
, pass, passNo, it hasn't. The beginner now has an incorrect understanding of the rules. This is worse than when beginners come to that understanding on their own, because it is what they have been taught.However, let's say the beginner does want to capture. The result is a tie. But I say again, so what? So they end up with a tie in their first game instead of a win they deserved. As long as they play a second game then the first game has served its purpose.
The problem is not who wins or loses. The problem is giving beginners the wrong idea about the game.This is not a tournament. Frankly, who wins and who loses doesn't even matter.
Please compare the "Bodensee rules" to "capture Go" which is also used forDusk Eagle wrote:While your rules may be fine for beginners, they're incompatible with Go as it is normally played. In normal Go, you can answer a ko capture with another ko capture, as long as it's not a capture on the same ko.
Bodensee rules are not in between Capture Go and normal go. They go off in a different direction.GoRo wrote:Maybe all criticising people could agree that Bodensee rules are somewhere
in between capture Go and normal Go?
The concept of territory in Capture Go is almost the same as in regular go. The concept of territory in Bodensee Go is quite different.Please compare the "Bodensee rules" to "capture Go" which is also used for
teaching beginners.
stones are dead, but it is Black's turn and Black to play can win by Bodensee Go rules.
the board is miai, and Black can get the last move by playing mirror go. Edit: Until White plays self-atari, that is. 