Page 2 of 2

Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:21 pm
by SmoothOper
wineandgolover wrote:
SmoothOper wrote: The tengen has multiple functions of course, but is it a serious threat?
Tengen can be used for moyo, but it is potentially even more useful in running battles. It is partially psychological. As black, instead of a single stone, pretend you've made a ponnuki in the middle. Use it for fighting because it cuts off escape routes.

If you just think of it as a ladder breaker, it is most definitely not a good play.

But if it is ladder breaker, plus moyo builder, plus fight assister, then it can be a great move.
Yes running battles! Of course picking the battles so that they don't interfere with ladders for example could be tricky.

Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:04 am
by drmwc
An interesting feature of san-ren-sei is that it breaks all the ladders hitting the side it is on. I think it may be the only 3-move formation with this property. For example, any ladder in the direction of the arrows below will be broken.

I don't think this on its own is a reaon to play san-ren-sei. But it's an interesting feature of this opening.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Ladder break
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$${AR M3 Q8}
$${AR N16 Q13}
$${AR M8 Q12}[/go]

Re: Joseki Ladder Breaker's value

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:35 am
by SmoothOper
drmwc wrote:An interesting feature of san-ren-sei is that it breaks all the ladders hitting the side it is on. I think it may be the only 3-move formation with this property. For example, any ladder in the direction of the arrows below will be broken.

I don't think this on its own is a reaon to play san-ren-sei. But it's an interesting feature of this opening.

I agree for example

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Ladder break
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . a 3 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Neither the ladder at a or the ladder following b work for black. Also with the pincher, tengen is well positioned for white to run into the center with a pincher.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Ladder break
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . 8 6 9 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]