Life In 19x19

Splatted wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Both of these options treat the stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Actually I'd appreciate it if you said more. It may have been black's choice to make the exchange but that doesn't necessarily mean the exchange favours black, so why do you think this is a case of black pushing white around instead of white letting black dig his own grave? (or anything in between)

The situation's a little beyond me but I've often made a similar exchange thinking it was reasonable for both players.

First, assuming that Black can indeed treat the stone lightly -- something that all commentators who have addressed the question seem to agree on --, then if White attacks the stone soon, Black can gladly throw it away. What grave?

Second, on the same assumption, the stone was played as kikashi. Now, there are some kikashi, such as a peep, which almost require a response, but that was not the case here. White could have pincered the stone instead of securing the corner. White took a force that he did not need to. Now, if that had in turn forced Black to make a base for the stone, then we could have regarded as gote no sente. But, by assumption, that is not the case. That means that we regard as kikasare. IOW, White got pushed around.

I think I am with Splatted on this one. It is true that W treated the B approach as a threat and felt compelled to defend the corner, so you could say that W got pushed around, but the exchange might still be good for W. Not all kikashi are good or profitable. A peep is usually good, because the opponent is required to connect on a worthless dame. The situation here is quite different -- B exchanged a move of dubious future value (as most reviewers agree?) for a move worth 20 points of immediate profit.

Bill Spight wrote:

Splatted wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Both of these options treat the stone lightly. Why can they do that? Because it has forced White to protect with . That says it all, doesn't it? In a two stone game Black has pushed White around.

Actually I'd appreciate it if you said more. It may have been black's choice to make the exchange but that doesn't necessarily mean the exchange favours black, so why do you think this is a case of black pushing white around instead of white letting black dig his own grave? (or anything in between)

The situation's a little beyond me but I've often made a similar exchange thinking it was reasonable for both players.

First, assuming that Black can indeed treat the stone lightly -- something that all commentators who have addressed the question seem to agree on --, then if White attacks the stone soon, Black can gladly throw it away. What grave?

Second, on the same assumption, the stone was played as kikashi. Now, there are some kikashi, such as a peep, which almost require a response, but that was not the case here. White could have pincered the stone instead of securing the corner. White took a force that he did not need to. Now, if that had in turn forced Black to make a base for the stone, then we could have regarded as gote no sente. But, by assumption, that is not the case. That means that we regard as kikasare. IOW, White got pushed around.

Sorry I didn't see this reply earlier.

I get that black got a probably useful light stone in sente, but it's not like he got it for free. White got to settle his group, make points in the corner and weaken black's left hand group, so why do you think black's move is worth so much more than whites?

So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play , and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to . Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as , whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

emeraldemon wrote:So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play , and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to . Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as , whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

My main point is that White let Black set the pace in a two stone game, and let Black get an easy opening. Magicwand's suggestion for is good, but I would not exactly call not doing so a misplay. As for a pincer at , I like the idea, and do not like the kikasare.

Gotta run.

Bill Spight wrote:

emeraldemon wrote:So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play , and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to . Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as , whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

My main point is that White let Black set the pace in a two stone game, and let Black get an easy opening. Magicwand's suggestion for is good, but I would not exactly call not doing so a misplay. As for a pincer at , I like the idea, and do not like the kikasare.

Gotta run.

Hey now! Jowa says - don't run.

mitsun wrote:I think I am with Splatted on this one. It is true that W treated the B approach as a threat and felt compelled to defend the corner, so you could say that W got pushed around, but the exchange might still be good for W. Not all kikashi are good or profitable. A peep is usually good, because the opponent is required to connect on a worthless dame. The situation here is quite different -- B exchanged a move of dubious future value (as most reviewers agree?) for a move worth 20 points of immediate profit.

I suppose the way to evaluate the quality of a kikashi is the profit you gain from the stone minus the profit your opponent got responding. As long as that is positive, you're good. Clearly white profits. But black's stone is far from dubious in value. In Bill's suggested continuations, black stretches far down the right side. Things are now awkward for white in the top right corner. Approaching on the right is jumping into an attack. Approaching on the left, black could pincer while making a better base for the stone left behind. If black plays close to the stone to capture it more cleanly, white can expand along the top and start a moyo. And even if white does allow black to settle on the top, black can threaten to jump out later on. Something like F14 later on could simultaneously expand a left side moyo and threaten to bring that stone to life. It's hard to quantify, but that sort of left behind stone can be a hassle for the other player all game.

Clearly there are some high-dan-reviewers around here.

A sparkle of (useless/usefull ?) wisdom lies in a Chinese saying "shuoqilai rongyi - zuoqilai nan " (←→ it's easy to talk, but difficult to do/achieve).

I only speak for myself when stating that I'd be happy to be forced (by B10) too make small (but only) corner territory among 2 groups while the left black 2-point extension is attackable by a (later ) white pincer @ c9.

The black 2-point extension B14 (in the same diagram ) could also be considered 'low' (hence ineffective), and if it is not played (we have seen other ideas) then its original meaning of B10 is unclear to me.

jts wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

emeraldemon wrote:So it seems there are two questions. One is where white should play , and the consensus seems pretty clear that the pincer I played was suboptimal, and taking the corner may be the best choice at that point. Question #2 is whether white has misplayed prior to . Bill and Magicwand say yes, pointing to problems as early as , whereas mitsun and maybe splatted seem to think those early moves were OK at least.

Does that about sum it up?

My main point is that White let Black set the pace in a two stone game, and let Black get an easy opening. Magicwand's suggestion for is good, but I would not exactly call not doing so a misplay. As for a pincer at , I like the idea, and do not like the kikasare.

Gotta run.

Hey now! Jowa says - don't run.

LOL!