Life In 19x19

snorri wrote:Okay, that example was more deeply controversial than I would have expected, so maybe shouldn't be considered in a short list. Any other favorites for common mistakes? I'm not sure I remember the normal ways of flubbing the 3-3 invasion under 4-4, but I think there are some.

Thinking this is the only move/normal move in this situation because it looks similar to another corner situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

isn't necessarily a mistake but not considering 3,3 as an option here is usually.

DrStraw wrote:I am surprised that no one mentioned the 4-4 cap of sansan.

Strongly considered it, but there are a few variations and the classic one contains moves that are a little harder to motivate. Is this the one you had in mind?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W shoulder hit
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 a . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 3 . . 7 . .
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .[/go]

There is also some controversy on this one, from Josekipedia:


Old pattern.

Not really Joseki anymore, because Black's corner is too good compared to what White can get out of his wall.


Sources
Alexandre Dinerchtein - KGS+ Lecture 05.06.2010


In my GoGoD it does indeed seem to have been last played in 2009. at 'a' or tenuki still have same games. The whole combo peaked in the mid-70s, because of course that means nothing as one's opponents might still play it and it has conceptual value. Maybe it should be paired with the 3-3 invasion under the 4-4 to show the difference sente makes in such a position?

snorri wrote:There is also some controversy on this one...

Perhaps the biggest point here is that amateurs love to play it because they vaguely remember the idea, but it's relatively rare that it's necessarily a good 'joseki' to play. White is actually a bit thin and floaty, which might be fine if it helps a global position or reduces a moyo black was building, but doesn't have a lot of value on its own - it could even come under attack! In real games, white will often do better to consider the various approaches.

amnal wrote:

snorri wrote:There is also some controversy on this one...

Perhaps the biggest point here is that amateurs love to play it because they vaguely remember the idea, but it's relatively rare that it's necessarily a good 'joseki' to play. White is actually a bit thin and floaty, which might be fine if it helps a global position or reduces a moyo black was building, but doesn't have a lot of value on its own - it could even come under attack! In real games, white will often do better to consider the various approaches.

I was given the same advice by my teacher. So, yeah, put it in a better context:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W reduce
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, because the position for black above is not ideal development, professional examples aren't common and the joseki shown isn't necessarily the choice for both black and white. At this point it is not such much a joseki as timing advice...

On that 44 pincer hane, I've heard it called bad by several pros in lectures.

Mr. Dinerchtein says that 3-3 joseki isn't really considered joseki anymore because it's an unequal exchange, but I also don't like this "joseki" for partly the same reason (also White is threatened to be sealed in):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So supposing you could teach only one 3-3 and one 5-4 joseki to the student which two josekis would you choose in this case (keeping in mind that you don't want to teach him a potentially inferior variation, regardless of how simple the sequence may be)?

logan wrote:Mr. Dinerchtein says that pattern isn't really considered joseki anymore because it's an unequal exchange, but I also don't like this "joseki" for partly the same reason (also White is threatened to be sealed in):

$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So supposing you could teach only one 3-3 and one 5-4 joseki to the student which two josekis would you choose in this case (keeping in mind that you don't want to teach him a potentially inferior variation, regardless of how simple the sequence may be)?

5-3 (doubles as sansan, actually)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . 2 . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Sansan:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . . O . . |
$$ . , . . . 2 . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Opps - 5-4, not 5-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

logan wrote:Mr. Dinerchtein says that 3-3 joseki isn't really considered joseki anymore because it's an unequal exchange, but I also don't like this "joseki" for partly the same reason (also White is threatened to be sealed in):

$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . , . . . X X , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So supposing you could teach only one 3-3 and one 5-4 joseki to the student which two josekis would you choose in this case (keeping in mind that you don't want to teach him a potentially inferior variation, regardless of how simple the sequence may be)?

That one's in the spirit of 5-4 josekis (at least the ones that settle). But today it seems taking territory is more popular:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . , . . . . X , O 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

To be fair, this is the way it looks because many times the 5-4 / 3-4 pattern arises because white has the 3-4 first and then tenukis after the high approach. Depending on the opening, it may still be a territorial style opening. We even see white tenuki after , which was popular in games of Cho U, who had a penchant for early approaches.

What do you think of this one, which is still played?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ . , . . X X X X O O . |
$$ . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think if you're going to start with the 5-4, a plan like this is probably in the spirit, but you have to have the rest of the board in a position to support it. It's worth teaching and explaining that the right side is open for white.

In your example, consider this tewari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ . , . . . 5 1 , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . a b . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

elsewhere. Usually, would be at 'a'. in this tewari would seem soft, as we know that in the 5-4 variation, white has the option of tenuki instead of , even though black 'b' would be a good follow-up.

So it wouldn't shock me if today someone thought it was good for white.

Thanks snorri. I was aware of these ideas when I made my post, and I have some beliefs as to why these are played. But that's not really the focus of this thread so I won't get into it : )

P.S. For your question, I don't like that joseki for White either. And that one is actually played less than the joseki in discussion. Can you guess why?

As a beginner i just remember moyo games. i used to take the star points, the other guy used to take star points. (they were marked on the board, they must be important!!! )

The 10 josekis (includes a variation) i think a beginner should know would be:

1. 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 stone.
   
   $$Bc joseki1
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . 8 6 . . . . |
   $$ . . . 9 7 5 4 2 . . |
   $$ , . . . . . 1 3 0 . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . . . , . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki1
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 7 5 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 3 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   
   

   $$Bcm11 joseki1 cont'd
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . O O . . . . |
   $$ . . . X X X O O 2 . |
   $$ , . . . . . X X O . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . . . , . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bcm11 joseki1 cont'd
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X O O 2 . |
$$ , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   
   
2. knights move approach to a 4-4 stone, replied with a one space jump.
   
   $$Bc joseki2
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ 7 . . . . . . 5 . . |
   $$ , . . . 3 . 1 . 4 . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
   $$ , . . . . . , . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki2
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ 7 . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . 3 . 1 . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
3. knights move approach to a 4-4 stone being replied with a knights move.
   
   $$Bc joseki3
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
   $$ , . . . . . 1 . 4 . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
   $$ , . . . . . , . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki3
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
4. At 12k i learned the following and went this is awesome!
   
   $$Bc joseki4
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . 3 . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . a . 1 . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . . . 4 . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki4
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . a . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
5. I never saw a 3-4 stone in the opening until i was 15k and learned how to properly approach it around 13k. Didnt learn any joseki of the 3-4 immediately but later learned the following one.
   
   $$Bc joseki5
   $$ ------------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . 8 . . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
   $$ . . , . . 6 . 2 , 1 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki5
$$ ------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 8 . . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ . . , . . 6 . 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
6. But the first 3-4 joseki i would teach a beginner would be:
   
   $$Bc joseki6
   $$ ------------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . 8 . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
   $$ . . a . . . 6 2 , 1 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki6
$$ ------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 8 . . . 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ . . a . . . 6 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

   
   
   I learned the one space low pincer to the knights move approach of a 4-4 stone and corner dive joseki at 10k.
   
7. did not know that the hane was a mistake (variation), learned the punishment (the descent variation). then learned the joseki.
   
   1. joseki
      
      $$Bc joseki7
      $$ --------------------+
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . 6 4 0 . |
      $$ , . . . . 7 1 5 8 . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . 9 . |
      $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ , . . . . . , . . . |

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bc joseki7
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 4 0 . |
$$ , . . . . 7 1 5 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

      
      

      $$Bcm11 joseki7 cont'd
      $$ --------------------+
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . 2 . O O O . |
      $$ , . . . . X X X O . |
      $$ . . . . . . . 1 X . |
      $$ . . . . . . . O . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . X . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ , . . . . . , . . . |

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bcm11 joseki7 cont'd
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . O O O . |
$$ , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

   2. variation
      
      Can also, substitute or include the variation where white plays the 2nd line hane instead of the descent.
      

      $$Bc joseki 7 variation. a and b miai.
      $$ --------------------+
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . 1 O O 2 . |
      $$ , . . . . a X X b . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . O . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . X . . |
      $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
      $$ , . . . . . , . . . |

      Click Here To Show Diagram Code

      [go]$$Bc joseki 7 variation. a and b miai.
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O O 2 . |
$$ , . . . . a X X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

8. joseki where black blocks the other side.
   
   $$Bc joseki8
   $$ ----------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
   $$ . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . 2 8 . |
   $$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki8
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ . X . . . . . 1 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

9. the attach and extend joseki.
   
   $$Bc joseki 9
   $$ --------------------+
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . 9 . 1 7 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
   $$ . . . . . 5 3 2 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |
   $$ , . . . . . , 8 . . |
   $$ . . . . . . . . . . |

   Click Here To Show Diagram Code

   [go]$$Bc joseki 9
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 9 . 1 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I rarely saw anything other than the 4-4 until i became an sdk, hence the large number of 4-4 josekis. If i saw any other point in the opening, i would just wing it.

The only joseki i know for the 3-3 is the shoulder hit.
The 4-5, i only know the one where black plays the knights move. Both of which, i just learned, are not that great for the approach-er .
The 3-5, i currently like the 4-5 approach but idk how that would go down with a beginner.

For a beginner or even a ddk i think playing is more important than learning joseki. (Not that anyone has suggested the opposite.)

For the 3-3, 4-5 and 3-5 (and also, for the 4-4 and 3-4) i suggest playing it for a few games and then reviewing them with a stronger player and learning the appropriate joseki.

(All diagrams created at http://hiddema.nl/diagrammer/ . Thank you Herman )

As a beginner often plays handicap games, I'd propose the following.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is a big assumption.

There are certainly people who say that "there are no joseki in large stone handicap games" because equal results mean one side loses.

It may be wrong in the beginner joseki collection, which stands for a sequences where both players get an even result. Ok... granted.

The concept of gaining profit while attacking and not being merely defensive when having supporting stones nearby in handicap games is important for beginners to understand, though.