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Damezumari, anyone?

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=9228

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Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:12 pm
by moyoaji
Ah, here we go.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w5: captures, W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O . |
$$ . . X O O O 7 6 |
$$ . . X . . O . 5 |
$$ . . . X . O 8 O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
A difficult problem, for sure. Lots of variations, but black can kill white without ko. 7 and 8 are miai.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:29 am
by Bill Spight
The solution has been found, but it is spread over more than one post by more than one person. Not so easy, but a cool problem. :)

Solution below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b1: is a vital point, forcing :w2: . :b3: threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at :w6: now.

:b5: is excellent! It allows White to protect at :w6: and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 1 O O 4 |
$$ . . . X O 2 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b7: is key, forcing White to fill the potential eye at :w8: in order to capture the Black stones. White is short of liberties otherwise.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O 2 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . O |
$$ . . . X . O 3 O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:b13: is a hammer blow. If :w14: ataris, :b15: takes away the potential second eye because of damezumari. :)

SoDesuNe found an interesting sacrifice for White leading to an under the stones play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10 SoDesuNe's variation
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
But :b17: strikes at the vital point and kills.
Edit: SoDesuNe and xed_over have found a different solution. :clap: :bow: :salute:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 9 O 8 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I see nothing better for White than :w6:, and the :b7: keeps things simple. :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:24 pm
by ez4u
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Bill - What is the refutation of :b5: in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails. :blackeye:

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:35 pm
by Bill Spight
ez4u wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Bill - What is the refutation of :b5: in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails. :blackeye:
Thanks, Dave. :) I did not look closely enough at SoDesuNe's post. I don't see a refutation to his :b5: either. I got this from a very nice book, Tsumego: New Research, by Kita Fumiko (1935). She did not show that play, either.

Well done, SoDesuNe! :clap: :salute: :bow:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 9 O 8 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
After SoDesuNe's move, :b5: , I do not see anything better for White than :w6: . Then :b7: keeps things simple. :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:13 am
by SoDesuNe
Ha ha ha, yeah, sadly that's the way I do Tsumegos. Give up one (actually working) line without thinking about every variation (putting :b4: one space lower in Var 2), find another line that seems to work but take the first best response and don't dig deeper for a more wholesome answer ( :b7: in Bill Spight's post) ^^

Really neat problem, a lot to think about =)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:45 pm
by xed_over
Bill Spight wrote:The solution has been found, but it is spread over more than one post by more than one person. Not so easy, but a cool problem. :)

Solution below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b1: is a vital point, forcing :w2: . :b3: threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at :w6: now.

:b5: is excellent! It allows White to protect at :w6: and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison.
but wait, why can't :b5: play here? game over, no? white still can't live, right? What am I missing?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:32 pm
by Bill Spight
xed_over wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:The solution has been found, but it is spread over more than one post by more than one person. Not so easy, but a cool problem. :)

Solution below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b1: is a vital point, forcing :w2: . :b3: threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at :w6: now.

:b5: is excellent! It allows White to protect at :w6: and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison.
but wait, why can't :b5: play here? game over, no? white still can't live, right? What am I missing?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
It's not the book solution, but we think that you are right. :) SoDesuNe found the same move, and neither ez4u nor I found a refutation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 9 O 8 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I do not see anything better than :w6:, and then :b7: keeps things simple. :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:05 pm
by xed_over
Bill Spight wrote: It's not the book solution, but we think that you are right. :) SoDesuNe found the same move, and neither ez4u nor I found a refutation.
ah right, there were so many variations in all the posts (and I had to unhide them all to try and follow them all), I missed those. sorry. thanks.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:21 pm
by Bill Spight
xed_over wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: It's not the book solution, but we think that you are right. :) SoDesuNe found the same move, and neither ez4u nor I found a refutation.
ah right, there were so many variations in all the posts (and I had to unhide them all to try and follow them all), I missed those. sorry. thanks.
My apologies. I have edited the solution page now. :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:26 pm
by cyclops
For the record. I pushed the like button in Bills solution post before he edited it. If you think I still like it you may be correct.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:55 am
by HermanHiddema
cyclops wrote:For the record. I pushed the like button in Bills solution post before he edited it. If you think I still like it you may be correct.
And if you don't there's always the unlike button :)
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