Life and Death Problems 1

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:47 am

From what I own, aimed at that bracket:

1001 Life & Death Problems: Varies from one move problems to five move problems. 15k+
Get Strong at Life and Death: 5k+
Essential Life and Death: 20k-5k, depending on volume. L&D drills.
Speed Baduk: 20k-5kish, Not just Life and Death but most problems in each of the books I have are Life and Death focused.

There are more (like Level Up and Jump Up) which I don't own.

In the English language market there are many books focused on problems in this area. If I had to point to a large gap it'd be in non-problem books for the 10k-5k level similar to Attack and Defense.

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:01 am

My opinion is that THE standard for learning L&D problems systematically up to shodan is "All About Life and Death" volumes 1 & 2 which unfortunately are out of print and impossible to legally reprint in English. But I have yet to buy and read RJ's new book.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:04 am

I don't see where language comes into play in a subject like L&D, or tesuji. For example, in Segoe-Seigen tesuji dictionary, the most bare hint of what to do is given as "chapter introduction," i.e. a contact play is what it's called for. Then you are thrown into the water. Go out and look for it. Same could go for almost any other concept. Snapback? Show a very basic shape and pile 50 problems, hopefully increasing in difficulty. At the end the player will have a good grasp of snapback and will know several "snapbackable" shapes by heart.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:47 am

leichtloeslich, I disagree with your theory about pupils being necessarily weak at LD, because it does not apply to pupils 4 kyu or stronger. For them, there is a healthy variation of a few with LD reading problems and others doing LD reasonably well for their ranks. Western 5k or weaker, however, have a general tendency to be weaker at LD than at most other fields. I do not see this only for my pupils, but for others I have only little observation, so I can be much less sure whether indeed also they are consistently weak at LD.

Boidhre, IIRC, the books you mention are like typical Asian problem books: many problems, but not always enough answer diagrams (when more relevant variations exist than are shown), explanations and accompanying theory. This makes it difficult for a beginner with weak LD skills to overcome incomplete reading or understand why his read variation(s) do not work.

tchan001, All About Life and Death do not serve beginners as well as 5k - 1k players, because beginner LD mistakes affect non-standard real-game shapes much more frequently than standard shapes. It is maybe 80% : 20%. SDKs learn more and more standard shapes, therefore create more and more, and so are confronted with an increasing frequency of mistakes in them, especially when the opponent tries trick plays or one extra stone makes the difference.

RBerenguel, language and its terms offer an assisting tool for recalling techniques and thinking in terms of techniques ("Can I create a liberty shortage?"). Even more importantly, LD allows many techniques; without even knowing names for them, it is hard to be aware and remember all. E.g., without having the concept 'double threat' in mind, less likely a player considers double purpose moves at all. The exact name for such a purpose is maybe immaterial, but being entirely speechless makes it hard to find moves with multiple purposes. This is so also at higher learning levels. E.g., without having the name (ten)thousand-year ko, one might overlook that its behaviour differs from an ordinary ko fight.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:58 am

I think we have a profoundly philosophical difference here Robert, even though I am all in for definitions (as any good mathematician) I concede that there are parts of our brain that don't work in words. So, my impression is that my mind doesn't need a name for the concept of double threat as long as the deeper understanding is there "look ma, I threat two things at once if I do this!" Having names is good to discuss games, though, so probably teaching a beginner just by examples of snapback without putting a name to it would make funny watching him later explaining something "You had this gap and then this happened and oh look they are no longer there if you take."

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:32 am

RobertJasiek wrote:Boidhre, IIRC, the books you mention are like typical Asian problem books: many problems, but not always enough answer diagrams (when more relevant variations exist than are shown), explanations and accompanying theory. This makes it difficult for a beginner with weak LD skills to overcome incomplete reading or understand why his read variation(s) do not work.

How many of the books I listed have you looked through?

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 am

Read one of them, looked through all, but my memory about the others is weak. EDIT: Is "Essential Life and Death" the LevelUp series? I have looked at the answers, which are available online.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:41 am

Dear Robert,

showing more "relevant" variations than "usual" makes sense (to some extent).

But what was your motivation for showing "Dia. 3 worst case" on page 80 of your book ?

"Life and Death" is (here) about "killing", not about "taking off the board" (this belongs to "Semeai").

"worst case" sounds dramatically, but you did nothing else than adding false eyes to a one-eyed group. Your move White 1 in Dia. 4 is simply a mistake, killing an already killed group, so losing a point. On the contrary, the conjunction with "worst case" might a weaker player make believe that adding false eyes might add any resistance to let their group become killed.

Does this have to do with your aversion agaist "shape" ?

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:50 am

Cassandra, I do not have an aversion against shape, but I just take it as what it is: a visual appearance without information about move-sequences and choices.

The worst case diagram demostrates something that a significant fraction players 20 - 5k (even to 2 dan) does not understand by themselves. Although it goes down to the level of scoring removals, and so is below the usual level of solving LD problems, for this example, I consider it important to explain both levels. (For a few similar diagrams, see First Fundamentals, chapter Life and Death.) EDIT: as I explain in the Introduction, p.6, paragraph four, variations can show further moves to clarify things, regardless of whether the status is already settled.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:51 am

RobertJasiek wrote:Read one of them, looked through all, but my memory about the others is weak. EDIT: Is "Essential Life and Death" the LevelUp series? I have looked at the answers, which are available online.

I ask because Speed Baduk in particular is not what you think it is. You first get some diagrams and text explaining for instance a simple snapback, then you get a series of increasingly difficult problems where the answer is a snapback, starting with a trivial problem for the level the book is aimed at. It's just just a simple series of problems at all but laid out by someone whose professional work includes studying different methods of teaching go to beginners.

Edit: Essential Life and Death is from Baduktopia who I believe do the LevelUp series. Problems are grouped by theme and the hint is given on the page heading e.g. rectangular six in the corner and then six problems on this. It's intended as a problem drill book, not a complete L&D bible.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:06 am

Ok, then I'd say Speed Baduk is more useful than I thought, but the problems tended towards the easy end.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:11 am

RobertJasiek wrote:Cassandra, I do not have an aversion against shape, but I just take it as what it is: a visual appearance without information about move-sequences and choices.

Just a tiny "SHAPE" example for your entertainment.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to move $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X X . . $$ | . X X . O O X X . $$ | X O O . . O O X . $$ | . . . . . . O X . $$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Liberty count $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X X . . $$ | . X X . 3 3 X X . $$ | X 3 3 . . 3 3 X . $$ | . . . . . . 3 X . $$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Bulky shape 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X X . . $$ | . X X . O O X X . $$ | X O O T T O O X . $$ | . . . T T T O X . $$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Bulky shape 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X X . . $$ | . X X . O O X X . $$ | X O O T T O O X . $$ | . . T T T . O X . $$ -------------------[/go]

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:42 am

RobertJasiek wrote:Ok, then I'd say Speed Baduk is more useful than I thought, but the problems tended towards the easy end.

I showed the last volume of it to a KGS 3k. He found the problems difficult enough.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:27 am

The sample is extended and its pages 116-123 are new:

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/LifeAndDeat ... Sample.pdf

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:26 am

Dear Robert,

Perhaps you wanted to think about the missing "SHAPE factor" in your book:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Liberty count $$ ------------------- $$ | X X X O . . . X . $$ | . O O O O . X O . $$ | O O . 2 O . X O . $$ | X X . 2 O . X . . $$ | . . X O O . . . . $$ | . X . X X X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Line of false eyes $$ ------------------- $$ | X X X O . . . X . $$ | . O O O O . X O . $$ | O P . X O . X O . $$ | X X M X O . X . . $$ | . . X P O . . . . $$ | . X . X X X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Liberty count $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O . . 2 X . . $$ | O . X 2 2 2 X . . $$ | O O O X X X X . . $$ | X X X , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Line of false eyes $$ ------------------- $$ | O O O M . O X . . $$ | O . Z O O O X . . $$ | O O O Z X X X . . $$ | X X X , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Liberty count $$ ------------------- $$ | X 2 2 . . . 2 X . $$ | X X 2 . O . 2 X . $$ | . . X O . O X X . $$ | . X . X O O X . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Line of false eyes $$ ------------------- $$ | X O O . M . O X . $$ | X X O M O M O X . $$ | . . Z O . O Z X . $$ | . X . X O O X . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . X . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Liberty count $$ ------------------- $$ | . X X . . 2 X . . $$ | O O O O . 2 X . . $$ | X X X X 2 2 X . . $$ | . . . , X X X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Line of false eyes $$ ------------------- $$ | . X X M . O X . . $$ | O O O O M O X . . $$ | X X X Z O O X . . $$ | . . . , X X X . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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