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Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:52 pm
by DrStraw
RBerenguel wrote:I'm not sure if this is a side attack on RJ, but in any case this is incredibly false, unless "for the most part" is just an English-centric view of the world. I can only vouch for computer science and mathematics terms (since it is where I have most knowledge), but Catalan translates ALL technical terms into Catalan, each year a commission decides what goes in, and how. It adds to the language corpus in a normalised manner. I'm not 100% sure about frequency in Castilian Spanish, but likewise, all technical terms in use eventually get a proper Spanish word to go with it. Icelandic to preserve its language integrity turns all foreign words into Icelandic-similar words. Since these three (aside from English and German) are the languages I'm most familiar with, I can't go on with more examples, but I'd bet French doesn't just take the English word, it wouldn't suit their style. But I guess having Spanish defeats the "for the most part" affirmation.
I certainly was not attacking RJ. I wasn't even thinking of German being his nationality. And I don't think Catalan and Icelandic are mainstream technology languages. I guess I should have been a little clearer but I was thinking of the mainstream languages like English, French, Russian and German for starters, and a few others as well. I know of few others than German which, for example, do not use a variant of the original Greek or Latin word. Russian does to some extent, but it still uses a lot of classical roots.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:07 pm
by leichtloeslich
DrStraw wrote:In the world of science,
That's a pretty big world! Anything specific you were thinking of?
DrStraw wrote:for the most part only the Germans translate technical terms into their own language.
So there are technical terms in
some language (not German) and these are the "true" terms, which (for the most part) only Germans bother to translate?
Maybe you could give a few concrete examples?
DrStraw wrote:I know of few others than German which, for example, do not use a variant of the original Greek or Latin word.
Could you give actual examples?
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:37 pm
by jts
He's talking about things like oxygen versus Sauerstoff, television versus Fernseher, economics versus Wirtschaftwissenschaft... in a large number of cases other European languages opted to simply adopted an international standard with classical roots to their own phonetics, while the Germans often translate the root directly.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:44 pm
by Boidhre
jts wrote:He's talking about things like oxygen versus Sauerstoff, television versus Fernseher, economics versus Wirtschaftwissenschaft... in a large number of cases other European languages opted to simply adopted an international standard with classical roots to their own phonetics, while the Germans often translate the root directly.
It's not quite that simple, it's not classical roots with their own phonetics but classical roots transformed into a borrowed word in the normal way for the two languages involved, radiation in English is radaíocht in Irish, which if you know both languages look like they come from the same Latin root but are far from just adopted to their own phonetics. Radiation amusingly isn't even English, it's French just with English phonetics, eh, ok so sometimes yeah it does happen...
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:27 am
by RobertJasiek
Languages can have had their own terms before imports become an option. E.g., German had had "Vorhand" and "Nachhand" before any Germans heard of "sente" and "gote". Nowadays, both are used about equally frequently. (Science: until WW II, there was a greater fraction of German science, so German kept a good percentage of its own terms. German terms are sometimes adopted in English: Eigenwert -> eigenvalue.)
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:01 am
by daal
In some cases, the Germans have two parallel words, such as Computer/Rechner, Electrizität/Strom for example. What seems relevant to a go terms discussion is that the germanized words have the advantage that their meaning is easily intuited by a native speaker.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:07 am
by oren
Japanese terminology has also adopted English words. That's why we have Mini Chugoku (Chinese) and Small Chinese fuseki.
Modern books also use a lot of borrowed English words for nonterms like "space" to make as large an area as possible.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:28 am
by Cassandra
RobertJasiek wrote:Languages can have had their own terms before imports become an option. E.g., German had had "Vorhand" and "Nachhand" before any Germans heard of "sente" and "gote". Nowadays, both are used about equally frequently.
"Vorhand" / "Sente", as well as "Nachhand" / "Gote" do have the same meaning, so using any of these is just a matter of style, or preference. However, this very special (board-) game vacabulary seems to have German roots.
I have found no Go book in English yet that would have used the term "forehand" (which seems to be limited to tennis).
So it was only natural that "Sente" and "Gote" were imported into the English language-area.
In the German language-area, however, there already existed technical terms, which entirely covered the meaning of the Japanese terms.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:09 am
by Kanin
Megalife (alt. Mega Life, Mega-Life) - Life that cannot be undone even with the opponent playing two moves in a row (i.e. you ignored one move).
This is a great tool for finding killing moves in life and death problems.
Conjecture: "If you can find a move that secures megalife for the opponent this must be played as a first move to kill."
I challenge you to come up with an example to disprove this!
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:29 am
by RBerenguel
Kanin wrote:Megalife (alt. Mega Life, Mega-Life) - Life that cannot be undone even with the opponent playing two moves in a row (i.e. you ignored one move).
This is a great tool for finding killing moves in life and death problems.
Conjecture: "If you can find a move that secures megalife for the opponent this must be played as a first move to kill."
I challenge you to come up with an example to disprove this!
I was explained this method by a Finnish 2d last July, and even though it is very useful, for some corner situations it's essentially not *that* useful, because sometimes there's no way to figure out continuations in the same way (sometimes you can think of moving twice again for the opponent, but sometimes can't)
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:52 am
by SmoothOper
I wonder why there aren't more Russian phonetics for satellites and space craft, in English. They were obviously the first to coin those terms.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:08 am
by Boidhre
SmoothOper wrote:I wonder why there aren't more Russian phonetics for satellites and space craft, in English. They were obviously the first to coin those terms.
As a word, satellite is rather old and not Russian.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:34 am
by Bill Spight
Cassandra wrote:"Vorhand" / "Sente", as well as "Nachhand" / "Gote" do have the same meaning, so using any of these is just a matter of style, or preference. However, this very special (board-) game vacabulary seems to have German roots.
I have found no Go book in English yet that would have used the term "forehand" (which seems to be limited to tennis).
So it was only natural that "Sente" and "Gote" were imported into the English language-area.
The translators of Korschelt rendered Vorhand as Upperhand (capitalized. too).
Ah! I have an idea. Foreplay!
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:37 am
by SmoothOper
Boidhre wrote:SmoothOper wrote:I wonder why there aren't more Russian phonetics for satellites and space craft, in English. They were obviously the first to coin those terms.
As a word, satellite is rather old and not Russian.
How do you know the Russian word for satellite wasn't older, or the German word for automobile etc. I'm just not buying the hypothesis that English don't retranslate the scientific terminology, take Newton for example, he was just doing the best he could to use Leibniz's notation.
Re: Personal go terminology
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:39 am
by Bill Spight
Boidhre wrote:SmoothOper wrote:I wonder why there aren't more Russian phonetics for satellites and space craft, in English. They were obviously the first to coin those terms.
As a word, satellite is rather old and not Russian.
Sputnik.
But of course we had to find a different term.