Page 2 of 8

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:01 am
by daniel_the_smith
That's odd, I could have sworn I posted something after Chew Terr's move about that not being a good time to tenuki and how I can't really think of a much more urgent situation at this stage of the game...

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:21 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, that's a pretty big loss in the corner, in all likelihood. I can fight back over there, but that would be disregarding the whole purpose of playing up here in the first place. I would rather play for consistency, outline the top, and threaten to do impolite things to the top corner/left side. Black can threaten my bottom side, but I should be stable enough to weather it fine. Black has a huge corner if he kills the stone's aji, but it feels like more of my stones are working together. I'm playing big risks and such, but if I don't get wishywashy, maybe I can stay in the game. I am horrid at analysis, but I'm not sure this board is terrible for black. Go go mutual damage?

Out of curiousity, what was the correct local move? Was it Q4? I felt like the hane at R2 was tiny and submissive.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:42 am
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alright, I hate to do this, but I think it's necessary. I think the rule is that it's time to invade the corner when there are two long extensions from the 4-4. The invasion ends in sente (or leaves aji), so I'll have time to reduce the outside.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:52 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, if he defended on the left top, I was considering closing this off. So it's probably a good time for it. This is one that I really ought not tenuki, I think. I also think this is the right direction for me, since I have more (and higher) stones on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fwiffo, you may accept these two diagrams as a trigger if you'd like. It's one of the only two joseki (the hyperbolization is smaller than I'd like) I know, so I may as well offer it as a trigger. If anyone would like a brief analysis of why each move in it is a good idea for both players, I can do so.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:04 am
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK, I've taken away the corner in sente, which was my goal. But now I gotta do something about the outside.

So far this game black has mapped out big ideas. My stones are less coordinated - a weakness in my game generally. My style has become territorial after having been a moyo style player up until about 6-7 kyu. I think I lost some coordination in that transition.

My upper left needs attention, but that's gote for me to fix now, and preventing black from getting too big in the middle is urgent. The thing is, everything in the middle is always bigger than it looks. I can engage in a light reduction and suddenly it doesn't look big at all.

I almost played a normal cap here, but I think the knight's move cap is plenty safe, and it does a better job in sector-line terms.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { LN F17 R10 }[/go]

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:28 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, so I debated between this and trying to deal with MHO's move directly. Anything direct seemed passive and 'turning thickness into territory'-ish. However, at the moment I think I can gain on the left as fast or faster than he can hurt me on the right. This continues to work with my other stones, so it looks okay to me. It's also sente, because it threatens to seal white's corner stone with a knight's jump. I don't think he can allow that, because it gives me a thick wall spanning nearly all of the north, so, I assume he'll finally respond. After that, I can decide between responding to his stone directly, splitting it off from his bottom right, or worrying about the bottom or right. All of those areas seem like good places for me to play, so I'll take this here and look forwards to my largish potential.

Let's say white has 20 in the bottom right, 10 in the top right, and 5-10 komi. 35-40 versus my framework plus this potential. Obviously W has potential as well, but I think mine is developing faster than his. 2 of his corners can be invaded at will, and the bottom right has enough aji to not be entirely his. As an aside, I know it's not supposed to be good to put all of your eggs into one moyo, and I can't count on getting much of the moyo into territory. However, I'm going to get some out of it, and there are weaknesses to exploit elsewhere. If I get 20 up top (Seems fairly easy) I can probably be content.

As an aside, this game illustrates some of my strengths and weaknesses as a player. I play some odd things in the opening, focusing on direction of play instead of territory and such. Lately, I have often considered myself even or a little ahead by move 30 or 50. However, when the close fighting happens, I feel like I'm outplayed and lose huge swaths. The fighting has mostly been avoided so far, but when it occurs, I expect MHO will have the advantage. I need to play tricky and be ahead by then so maybe I can eke it out. Also, I think sometimes lately I've been too willing to sacrifice stones and groups in unnecessary exchanges.


By the way, Fwiffo, thanks again. This game is already quite exciting.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:42 am
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, I really need to tend to this now. I do feel like I've fallen behind, but I think the middle is going to get pretty small.

I don't like the high response generally, but I think I need it here. If he plays C12, he's going to push me into the middle, which is not what he wants.

Hmm, those two black stones in the bottom left seem less happy... Maybe I've got a target for later when more development has happened in the middle.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:25 am
by dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have a hard time believing that this is better than making a double pincer on the star point stone at a.

Unfortunately I have no variations or anything to back this up :) It just seems like there's got to be a better use of getting an extra stone in this corner.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:21 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was torn here on a couple of options. First, I wanted to push white's single stone out of my framework, starting to wall it off. However, that's a really inefficient way to make territory. Second, I wanted to jump south in the top left, forcing MHO to take fourth line (!) territory in order to expand my framework even further (cut mad scientist laughter). Third, I considered grabbing a base in the south, which would help the aji of my trapped stone some. Let's look at these options in a pretty picture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, 'a' seems inefficient, letting MHO have too large a reduction for too cheap. 'b' is tempting, but it's playing with fire. Whoever gets it first is really happy, but his group is currently loose enough that I could probably deal with it if I need to. Taking 'b' would make it less loose, getting it closer to actual territory. If I'm making the wrong move, 'b' is probably the right one, though. 'c' is also really tempting. It gets me a base and stability, and threatens to extract the aji stone. The problem with it versus 'b' or 'd' is that, while it's fair reverse sente, it's not double-sente like 'b' and 'd'. I'm going for 'd' so that I can up the ante. Rather than block him small with 'a', I'll attack him on a massive scale with 'd'. His stone may run, forcing me to block where I want to. He cannot sacrifice it entirely, because that gives me a huge side/middle/top. I figure, he's likely to play lightly, live inside or escape, but I'll get a lot in exchange.

Actually, I take it back. I was decided on 'd', but 'b' is just as sente as its predecessor is. He's not really solid enough on that side to be a threat, and taking 'b' makes 'd' that much huger. Let's lay it all on the line and go for the gold. I'll take 'b' then hope to get 'd'.


This is where we over-think, and talk ourselves into a bad decision.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:50 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess I'll take fourth line territory. The moyo does look intimidating, but it's still very poke-able.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:55 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All right, I placed my bet, time to watch the horses run. I said I'd take 'b' then 'd' in my previous commentary, and this is the second half. Thankfully, the west isn't really solid territory yet. Of course he'll get something there, and more than I'd like, but both of his corners are open, and that keeps the prior exchange fair. I've given him so much starter-territory, let's see if I can play a good enough framework game to outstrip it.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:04 pm
by Harleqin
I really wonder why no one wanted the upper left corner.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:07 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Honestly, I have no idea how do do proper reductions. This is just a probe; I'm looking for aji.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:19 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 9 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fwiffo: that was really unexpected. Obviously you had to do something inside, and sprinkling stones lightly seems good style, but I would have taken the shoulder hit over this in a heartbeat.

Harleqin:
I was really concerned that taking it would hurt my framework. I've been trying to play in a way to keep the 3-3 open for me, but something else seemed higher priority. Now I think I could jump in without hurting my top at all, but attacking his reducing stone seemed too massive in scale to resist. When would have been the right time for either player to take it? Obviously someone probably will soon, but I was curious about when you would have recommended it?


So, I considered playing the hane under, the hane on top, or extending upwards. If I can handle the crosscut okay, I should hane. I strongly considered the under-hane, but I think that's too passive. His stone has nowhere to go, so I'll force the cross-cut. This deep into my turf, surely I'll come out well-compensated. I expect MHO will sacrifice this stone, and perhaps a few more, but will get a working reduction. I am betting the game on him not reducing me enough to win. If our soldiers die, they will be told of for years to come.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:25 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X 0 . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All I can say is that caps and shoulder hits on fourth-line stones are usually "wrong feeling". This felt trickier. I think my reading is stronger, so it's to my advantage to make things tricky. I had this counter-hane in mind. Now that I've sown the seed, I'm going to slow way, way down to read out the best possibilities. Gotta stay light...