Shenoute wrote:Well, you may want to read it again
I'll definitely read it again.
Shenoute wrote:It is ok not to like this book (it is not my favorite go book either) but to say that it doesn't teach enough seems misguided to me.
I think it is hard to learn from this book. It covers many areas, fundamental areas if you like. But (I don't want to say it doesn't teach - because this can also be called a form of teaching) it doesn't put it in front of you prepared. It gives you a treasure map "go, dig there and you'll find some gold". It can even be a better method, but I think I'm not dedicated enough to learn that way.
Yes, you're right. The main points are a bit hidden by the small talk in each chapter.
Actually, it could be a good idea to post a summary of the book, with the few key sentences of each chapter neatly organized. It may make the book more usable (don't know if this would be acceptable from the copyright point of view though).
Another idea may be to post game commentaries focused entirely on this key concepts.
I'll give a look at it and will post something if this seems feasable.
This book is great! I had fun reading it and learned a lot while doing so. Kageyama has a good sense of humor and an easy going writing style. This is accompanied by his deep experiences giving lectures about the fundamentals. I believe, that the book helped me gain a different look at the game and even where to look for right move. One can approve greatly by understanding and reviewing the fundamentals.
peti29 wrote:I may be wrong about this but I had feeling while reading the book as if Kageyama was saying: "I used to be an amateur, but now I am pro. And gee, do amateurs suck!" Which probably is true btw, but that doesn't motivate me at all. (Though it might be the right thing to motivate other people, still.)
The best thing I profited from the book is "you got to read your ladders!".
The worst thing is I started worrying that I might be one of those "permanent 6 kyus"....
Edit: ah, and yes, all that talk about "fundamentals" without actually telling what they were.
I don't think he is disrespectful to kyu-level players. I think he is urging people to improve. Everyone can improve, even pro title holders. Pros spend a lot of time studying, on their own and in study groups. Go Seigen said "The supreme enjoyment is to become one stone stronger" and he pointed out that this enjoyment is available to amateurs but not to him. Kageyama's remarks often seem to me to be like a sports coach speaking gruffly or even shouting to get his players to do well. I have met many pro players and not one of them showed disrespect to amateur players, certainly not to kyu-level players. From the perspective of a mid-dan pro all amateurs, both dan level and kyu level have so much room for improvement. I have occasionally noticed disrespect for kyu-level players coming from some amateur dan-level players, though.
gowan wrote:I don't think he is disrespectful to kyu-level players. I think he is urging people to improve. Everyone can improve, even pro title holders. Pros spend a lot of time studying, on their own and in study groups. Go Seigen said "The supreme enjoyment is to become one stone stronger" and he pointed out that this enjoyment is available to amateurs but not to him. Kageyama's remarks often seem to me to be like a sports coach speaking gruffly or even shouting to get his players to do well. I have met many pro players and not one of them showed disrespect to amateur players, certainly not to kyu-level players. From the perspective of a mid-dan pro all amateurs, both dan level and kyu level have so much room for improvement. I have occasionally noticed disrespect for kyu-level players coming from some amateur dan-level players, though.
I agree with this assessment of Kageyama as a coach. His book does not simply teach lessons, it demands that the player try to improve.
I'm generally surprised by players who take his rants that seriously. Over and over again in his book he clearly states at times that he is joking. I see no reason to view some of his harsher comments as jokes while others he meant with absolute seriousness. The book is light-hearted as long as it is not read with a heavy heart.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
karaklis wrote:I'm still struggling with finding out, what "fundamentals" actually mean, and once I have found it, I'll let you know (having found it out will probably mean to have broken through the wall that I had hit years ago).
- Fundamentals are the building blocks for making decision. I think this is often confused with marketing talk such as "essential tsumego". Fundamental of life and death, as explained in the book is to firstly expand the eyespace of the group. Many players do this naturally and result of having live groups on the board attest to its fundamentality. Conversely a group can only die when it's surrounded and this is the proper way to kill groups.
Kageyama teaches what playing Go is about in a basic level. The diagrams are there to illustrate what is being said. Going into specific attacking techniques and such is beyond the scope of the book.
