Life In 19x19

shapenaji wrote:Okay people, lets not delve too deeply into the ice cream metaphor, it doesn't really apply.

For one, these people would pay more for the possible access to the prize, they're not getting anything for free.

Yes, good point. That's a difference between his analogy and what we're talking about.

I find the idea that the volunteers in the AGA "do not care" or "do not want to promote go" to be extremely insulting. Different people have different ideas of how best to promote go, but I can guarantee that no one giving as much time as the volunteers in the AGA do would do so if they did not love the game and want to spread the game.

Are there new and better ways of doing so? Almost certainly. If anyone here has such an idea, they should either put it into action themselves (as the creators of IgoLocal and GoClubsOnline have done), they should speak to their AGA regional representative (I guarantee also that these people are interested in hearing from any go player, and not only from current AGA members), or they could take the incentive to join the AGA and to accomplish their goals from within.

I think that the airing of ideas is extremely worthwhile, but I find it extremely insulting that people who have not taken the incentive to "break into the club," which is actually extremely easy to do if one tries, are insulting those who love the game of go, who want to promote the game, and who want to make it easier for anyone who wants to play a game in person to find an opponent.

etower366i2 wrote:I think that the airing of ideas is extremely worthwhile, but I find it extremely insulting that people who have not taken the incentive to "break into the club," which is actually extremely easy to do if one tries, are insulting those who love the game of go, who want to promote the game, and who want to make it easier for anyone who wants to play a game in person to find an opponent.

To be honest, I'm actually with Kirby on this one. Its not necessarily easy to "break into the club" -- but it can be done. It takes a lot of persistence, and thick skin (and from personal experience, complaining that you can't get in doesn't help, in fact it tends to have the opposite effect). It also helps to come to the Go Congresses and meet people in person.

Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

Kirby wrote:Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

but if youre at congress, who will post on the forum all day?

vash3g wrote:

Kirby wrote:Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

but if youre at congress, who will post on the forum all day?

I'll probably be able to manage if they have wifi...

I've tried to quit posting so much before, but it never works.

Kirby wrote:Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

Next year! I think I can finally make it, so you should go, too!

Chew Terr wrote:

Kirby wrote:Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

Next year! I think I can finally make it, so you should go, too!

Well, let's hope they have wifi, because with *both* of us gone from the forums, the site traffic will definitely be too low!

Kirby wrote:

Chew Terr wrote:

Kirby wrote:Man, another reason I've gotta go to congress one of these years!

Next year! I think I can finally make it, so you should go, too!

Well, let's hope they have wifi, because with *both* of us gone from the forums, the site traffic will definitely be too low!

The internet as a whole will breathe a sigh of relief when released from my constant midkyu ramblings. =D Perhaps our absence will finally give the internet time to... repaint the nodes?

To be honest, I'm actually with Kirby on this one. Its not necessarily easy to "break into the club" -- but it can be done. It takes a lot of persistence, and thick skin (and from personal experience, complaining that you can't get in doesn't help, in fact it tends to have the opposite effect).

You see this in kindergarten every day. Four kids building a Lego castle and a fifth one wants to butt in. The foursome don't want their castle destroyed. No. 5 bursts into tears but goes off and does his own thing. The other kids finish their own project and wander over, like what they see and join in. No. 5 beams and they all remain pals (though protective mums allowed to watch may bare their fangs).

Maybe it's not just in go that the tiny tots have something to teach us.

John Fairbairn wrote:
You see this in kindergarten every day. Four kids building a Lego castle and a fifth one wants to butt in. The foursome don't want their castle destroyed. No. 5 bursts into tears but goes off and does his own thing. The other kids finish their own project and wander over, like what they see and join in. No. 5 beams and they all remain pals (though protective mums allowed to watch may bare their fangs).

Maybe it's not just in go that the tiny tots have something to teach us.

I'm confused, the 4 kids playing don't want their castle destroyed, so they don't let the kid join in, but when the other kid builds something, it's okay for them to join in? Isn't the 5th kid worried about them destroying HIS castle?

It seems like the 4 kids have no trust in the 5th, but the 5th is expected to trust the 4 after they've rejected him...

If your analogy is accurate, this seems like an odd lesson about the AGA.

But again, volunteer time is not at the heart of this issue.

shapenaji wrote:
But again, volunteer time is not at the heart of this issue.

One issue is equality, the other is community or perhaps loyalty, the third is regulation.
I'll add a fourth - honour

This is not about the volunteers or their time.

Yes it is. They were the ones who came up with with rules you are objecting to. I repeat again that the first priority is to understand why they did and why so many people here seem to endorse the rules, at least in part. You won't make much headway until you understand why they volunteered and what their bottom line is. As I've tried to point out earlier, killer arguments on paper mean little when you are dealing with real people. < Admin: minor ad hominem removed >

The non-volunteers inevitably say something accidentally which the volunteers take personally.

This is one of the oddest statements I've ever seen for justifying attempted censorship. I'm gobsmacked. My flabber has never been so gasted.

"No it isn't."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't."



I'd just like to reiterate my support for Richard Nixon.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Yes it is. They were the ones who came up with with rules you are objecting to. I repeat again that the first priority is to understand why they did and why so many people here seem to endorse the rules, at least in part. You won't make much headway until you understand why they volunteered and what their bottom line is. As I've tried to point out earlier, killer arguments on paper mean little when you are dealing with real people.

Wait, so the volunteer time in question is the time they put into crafting the rules?

It's a very, very loose connection between these rules and volunteers. I think it's a hard sell.

P.S.
as it stands:
30% of votes went to approval of one or the other rule
37% of votes went to disapproval of one or the other rule
Rest Abstain

Among AGA members (Including those who abstained and chose one of the last 3 options, I.e. giving the Pro-voters the benefit of the doubt, that those who abstained ARE AGA members, the results are rather starker)

25% of votes went to approval
37% of votes went to disapproval
37% Abstain

If we look at only those AGA members who took a position:

41% in favor of the rules
59% against

So, I would say that the "so many people who endorse these rules" are in fact a minority. They just happen to be a very vocal one.

The non-volunteers inevitably say something accidentally which the volunteers take personally.

This is one of the oddest statements I've ever seen for justifying attempted censorship. I'm gobsmacked. My flabber has never been so gasted.

Um, attempted censorship? I was observing what happened, and I believe my point was not to get off topic. If you want to make a thread about volunteer appreciation, and experience that flamewar, by all means, go ahead. But my point is that this issue is about AGA members relationship with other American Go players, not about volunteer hours.