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98. Araban vs. Magicwand

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3164

Page 11 of 21

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:36 am
by jts
Harleqin wrote:Observers:
It should be mentioned that :b53: is an endgame mistake that loses two points. :geek:


Why? I get that maybe it's aji keshi... is there a seki I'm not seeing?

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:50 am
by topazg
jts wrote:
Harleqin wrote:Observers:
It should be mentioned that :b53: is an endgame mistake that loses two points. :geek:


Why? I get that maybe it's aji keshi... is there a seki I'm not seeing?


If I recall correctly, you should descend on the other side in sente first, but I can't really remember :S

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 am
by Dusk Eagle
It took me a second to figure out, but here's how I believe you should play, assuming a bit of black support on the outside (which is not unreasonable given that even if white decides to live in the corner early, you don't have to expend all your forcing moves until later in the game):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 0 |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . B . . . X 3 2 . 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 5 7 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that any other move for :w8: is not guaranteed life. In particular, the push-out makes ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 O 5 . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . B . . . X X O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:23 am
by unkx80
For observers only.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far nobody seemed to have mentioned the possibility for white to pull out like this, making a and b miai. Something to ponder about.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:37 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No need to second-guess myself here, and I think that's one of the pitfalls in Malkovich games. Because there are no time limits (kind of) and playing a move in a Malkovich game isn't as convenient as just clicking the mouse, often times one may feel pressured to over-analyze a situation and think too much over the simplest of moves (though for a lot of people their overall problem with their Go is thinking too little of their moves rather than too much).

Also I'm going to refrain from triggers for as long as possible.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:46 pm
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 4 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:48 pm
by Mnemonic
I am suprised that Araban played that move. It was also my first choice, but then I read this sequence. Does anybody know what he's planing (or where I went wrong?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a, b miai to kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . b . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Edit: ninjaed.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:46 pm
by yoyoma
Mnemonic wrote:I am suprised that Araban played that move. It was also my first choice, but then I read this sequence. Does anybody know what he's planing (or where I went wrong?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a, b miai to kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . b . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Edit: ninjaed.


In the real game whole board, similar to your diagram, there isn't much below the 13th line. ;-)

Black can run out if he jumps to c, and then white plays a.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:38 pm
by daal
Araban wrote:To daal:
Did Shaddy already answer your question, or would you still like my feedback?


Shaddy's comments gave me plenty to think about. I assume that the kyu-type follow-up you were referring to would be to try to live in the corner right away, and that MW's response was pretty much what you were expecting

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've got to live right? Note how my move strives to live by eyeing the connection problem between D14 and C11. It's simple as that.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:11 pm
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:17 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:45 pm
by Kirby
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.


Do others agree with this (since "a" is gote)?

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i dont agree with his last move...
it can not be good. it is wrong. i dont understand his move......

now i have to worry about what i am going to do with my sente..
i am thinking upper right corner life is plenty for me since he played subpar move.

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:07 pm
by Magicwand
this is what i expect. if he cut at "a" then he will lose big.
i dont expect him to make that kinda mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X 4 3 . 7 |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X 6 . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


b: i think it is my right. (which means i have better chance to play that move)
c: i like this move. i dont think we expect me to play this move.
d: this look too fast. i might get attacked and lose my flow and lose.
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