Araban vs Magicwand II

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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

L10 is a bit annoying; because I can't eat it via ladder, I have to try and nullify it with this move. He can, of course, try to save it but I want to make that as painful as possible if he wants to go that route.
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 0 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

wow.. i did all that thinking for no reason..
that is why i hate thinking until opponent makes his move..
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Loons
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 White sente?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My first thought was this, but it is far too thin, with eg. the peep 'a'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 White sente?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I vote White... P8.

Oops, and I have been sniped by Magicwand himself. Less emphasis on the right, hmmm.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a 2 X 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel like :b61: is the move. If a, white has b 61 c sometime.


@Magicwand
Why 60 and not another similar move? (eg. I thought you might play p8.)
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

since someone requested my expectation on my opponent's move on every move...
after that i have no idea where he will play..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

loons:
hum...
i am not sure if your move is better or my move is better.
but...
your move appears to be weaker move of two. i am not saying that it is...but appears to be. (feeling)
i am not worried about his points on the right at all.
i have enough points myself..
all i want out of this is...a simplicity.
i think i am lucky that he backed down and not attack me when he had a chance.
for that he will not get any points in the middle. that is good enough for me to keep my lead.
i will connect and connect..he will have to jump in my influence sometime to make it a game.
if i am down..i do not miss that chance to attack. he did.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Weird, MW's 61 was the 61 that came to me instantly, but it's a move I'd have to think hard about before actually playing...
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

now i think of this position...my move was wrong
below should be correct. i try to save one stone moving aji...that was greddy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 1 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was really tempted to play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . W . W X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I think it's a bit of an overplay because if White escapes his stone with 'a', then I end up with 3 stones just chilling...the marked White stones will make the journey of escape somewhat painful as well. So I decided to just play simple and safe.
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

he still have to play one more move in the middle to remove aji.. :)
i know that it is a net... but if i push as below..my thickness will multiply...which means more points..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b3: = tuniki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 1 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Solomon »

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving Magicwand!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't give him the entire left side. Seeing how the dust has settled at the top/center, I feel it's time for me to play the big move.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X 4 O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Uberdude »

Black getting sente to enter lower left seems to make it hard for white to win. I'm guessing Magicwand will try to kill it, but that seems rather unlikely, particularly given he generously gave black some central thickness to help out in the fight. If I were white I would have played c5 instead of m11 (m11 was a nice idea to overconcentrate, but far too early as Araban is obviously not stupid so did not answer timidly to swallow the stones above and give white the centre, but let white save the junk stones and made thickness himself). In fact I would probably c5 instead of n7, and leave n9 to fend for itself.


@Magicwand
You said
Magicwand wrote:now i think of this position...my move was wrong
below should be correct. i try to save one stone moving aji...that was greddy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But in the game, after playing :w3: first and then :b2: you played at a rather than 1. Do you think a is better?. It seems a tad slow to me. You said black can't tenuki (but he did, and I agree with him) or you play at 1 to increase your influence, but doesn't that make a rather slow?
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Uberdude :
i analyzied the board and decided that i am still ahead.
that is why i choose to play a move that is simple and leave no complication.
i value my thickness more than visible points.
i read your review on our last game and disagreed on few points you made.
it seems that you value points more than thickness. In this game i feel very comfortable on my position because i have more thickness that will yield points later.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . Q . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X 4 O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We can expect this, right?

I feel like Magicwand will probably be able to help the triangled stones sufficiently and take sente, though I'm shaky on how that will go down- so Magicwand will possibly get his followup move at 'a'...

After which, how does black sufficiently reduce bottom? Or conversely, how big is right?

*Edit: Thinking about the weak groups on the left, while conventional wisdom is that adjacent weak groups sort-of-settle eachother, the actual result now may be board-defining (who lives on the left? How big? How much influence does who get where? Who's sente?
Last edited by Loons on Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Loons »

@Magicwand:
Sorry about the vague question;
What sort of result are you expecting on the left, once it becomes settled?
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