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#244 Bill vs Ed

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11002

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Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:47 pm
by Uberdude
@Bill
I meant the local shape has a ladder as a next move, which the atari destroys. Even if the ladder doesn't work now it might later.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:08 am
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm82
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Ah, I hadn't considered the peep. Still, I like playing the hane/atari here. I very briefly considered E12, but I'm tired of being pushed around! I think that I can get some forcing moves here. Of course, I've been wrong throughout this game!

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:21 am
by Uberdude
White should probably tenuki now to make n9 become a wasted move as the below is a nice trade for white. I don't understand how Aidoneus thought n9 made this atari more sente, it makes it less!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm82
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . 2 . . 4 . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:21 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm83
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 26, 2014. 11:21 am )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:34 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:19 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm85
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 26, 2014. 1:19 pm )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:16 pm
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm86
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This is the move I had planned on getting in before deciding to push in with P12. Before playing it, though, I take a look at O13 but I didn't like White's peep at N12. I also considered P13, but it looked like I would be shorting my liberties top right in any chase, and I didn't want to allow the hane over that extension up. I thought about shoulder hits at J16 and L16, but I think that I can get something better after first getting in the move I played. Finally, I considered (worried would be more like it) the condition of my stones on the top left and thought about making an empty triangle with D15, attaching with E14 or F15, the large horse head and cap at E13, and the cap at G15. Now after my move, if White cuts at D15, I am thinking of playing D12; if White then plays D18, I can save two stones with E17--I give more corner/side, but it looks like I get some compensation in the middle. If I actually predict one of Ed's moves, I think that it will be a first! :lol:

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:22 pm
by EdLee
Hi Aidoneus, you can view this photo in the Hide tag:
image.jpg
image.jpg (1.64 MiB) Viewed 10522 times
Lunch right now. :)

( Local time Wed Nov 26, 2014. 2:22 pm )

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:40 pm
by EdLee
Hi Aidoneus, you can view this photo in the hide tag: :)
I still don't know how to reduce the resolution...
probably need to get a basic photo-editing app...
image.jpg
image.jpg (1.74 MiB) Viewed 10518 times
( Local time Wed Nov 26, 2014. 2:40 pm )

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:35 am
by EdLee
A few days ago, I was looking this local shape, after the :b86: jump, on a real board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm85
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . 2 . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . |
$$ . . . X O O O . . |
$$ . . . X O X . . . |
$$ . . X O X O O . . |
$$ . . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . X . . O . |
$$ . . . . O X X O . |
$$ . . X X X O O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 26, 2014. 5:35 pm )

Re:

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:33 am
by Uberdude
@Ed:
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm83
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . X O X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Did you consider any other moves?

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:44 am
by Uberdude
Aidoneus wrote:Now after my move, if White cuts at D15, I am thinking of playing D12; if White then plays D18, I can save two stones with E17--I give more corner/side, but it looks like I get some compensation in the middle. If I actually predict one of Ed's moves, I think that it will be a first! :lol:
If black tries to save the stick of 3 stones after white cuts I fear one or both of black's groups would die. It would be better for black to sacrifice the 3 for now and secure the top group whilst also attacking k17. Maybe white shouldn't cut but attack the whole thing (and strengthen k17 in the process).

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:51 am
by EdLee
Uberdude wrote:Did you consider any other moves? ( :w83: )
The :b82: atari was there for some time, since :b78: .
I probably had considered tenuki from the atari, but probably dismissed it.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:15 am
by Aidoneus
Hi Ed,

Your lunch looks quite appetizing! Especially as I am having my usual breakfast of black coffee. Too bad the grounds get stuck between my teeth...

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:35 am
by Bill Spight
Aidoneus wrote:I am having my usual breakfast of black coffee. Too bad the grounds get stuck between my teeth...
Have you tried adding water? ;)
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