126. EdLee vs Loons

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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 C X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O C 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Nice sente yose by Ed.
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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

I estimate right is bigger than top (because of the large yose Ed left). White's bottom right is big and black does not have a clear equivalent. Black's bottom and left groups should represent more points than white's bottom left. Black should gain points in the centre. White has sente.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Accepted. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm70 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Loons has to choose: (a) empty triangle, (b) possibly ko, or (c) tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm70
$$ ---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . O X . . . . |
$$ O O X O . . . |
$$ O X X X O . . |
$$ . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . O X . a b |
$$ . . X . X X 1 |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O . O |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . X . X . O . |
$$ O . . . O . . |
$$ . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]
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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I wonder where Ed will tenuki to. I guess he feels my top yose is small :(

I am of the opinion this (C7) yose was played too early. It's not like black was going to play reverse-sente here next or even soon, so- why should white play it ? In a timed game, you might play this early while thinking of other moves...

Though, to be fair, I was debating whether I wanted/needed this sequence soon:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 5 . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O 3 . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 O 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe Ed is going to preempt this. What other gote could this be aiming at?
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm72 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Trigger:
T10 :b73: atari, T7 :w74: connect.
(p)
Bad habit. No hurry; W should've saved :w72: for later.
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

And :b75:... solid connect.
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Post by EdLee »

For completeness. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm73 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . 3 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Again, the usual suspects. :batman:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . M X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . M X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

I guess I made a stupid mistake?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 C X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Or maybe no points difference.
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Post by EdLee »

My rough count: (a) ~= (b) ~= 40; (c) ~= (d); (e) ~= (f).
So I have to be careful (g) does not turn into a monster for B, so :w76:(h) seems big...?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . e . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . , . . h X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . d . . . . . . . O . . f . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re:

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

If Ed's count is correct, then black is in good shape here. It is hard to see where white is going to get a significant increase in points, whereas black can grab big chunks with 'a' or 'b'.
White's saving grace is that 'b' is modest sente if he plays it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . b X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


An alternate plan for white might be 'c', threatening 'd', then follow up with 'e'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If 'b' is indeed sente for white, a hybrid of these two may be possible.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm76 Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 1 X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

*Sigh* ...still uncertain, but :wc: seems big, so let's try it. :oops:
If :b1: hane, perhaps I can cut with :w2: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X X |
$$ . . . . O X . X O |
$$ . . . . X . X X O |
$$ . . . . . X O O O |
$$ . . . . . X O . O |
$$ . . 1 2 . . X O . |
$$ . . W X . X . O . |
$$ . . O . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$-------------------+[/go]
(p)
Big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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cdybeijing
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Re: Re:

Post by cdybeijing »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:If Ed's count is correct, then black is in good shape here. It is hard to see where white is going to get a significant increase in points, whereas black can grab big chunks with 'a' or 'b'.
White's saving grace is that 'b' is modest sente if he plays it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . b X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


An alternate plan for white might be 'c', threatening 'd', then follow up with 'e'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :w2: :b1:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . X . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If 'b' is indeed sente for white, a hybrid of these two may be possible.


It seems absolutely imperative that white get c in your second diagram, as it is huge sente for black if he gets to play it.
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