Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:29 am

The biggest thing from this game was this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O . O . | $$ | . O O X O X O . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . O X X X O O . . , . X . X X X . . . | $$ | . X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | X O O X O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . O O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O O . . . X X O . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X . O . . X O O . O . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X X , O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O . X X X X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . X X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where did that come from?

I should play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O . O . | $$ | . O O X O X O . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . O X X X O O . . , . X . X X X . W . | $$ | . X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | X O O X O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . O O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O O . . . X X O . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X . O . . X O O . O . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X X , O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . O . X X X X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . X X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:46 pm

Back in the AYD.

First game was a loss.

Here's the SGF, with a few comments:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:02 pm

Highlights of where I think I could have played better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like the feeling of this type of move. It feels like I'm going to attack my opponent. But there's the action of attacking, and then there's actually getting points.

Sure, this move elicited a response. But a few moves later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . @ @ , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What did I actually get? I got 4 stones on the board, which might get a few points of territory. I didn't really do much to help the center or get points elsewhere.

And now, it's hard to really play here in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is already alive and would definitely tenuki.

In comparison, it might be more useful to get this move now:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is not alive, yet.

----

The other aspect is this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . W . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For sure, I am hurting the white stones on top. However, it does take away a lot of points from black if I live in the corner.

Let's say I played here, and black responds.:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . 1 2 6 . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has:
Top right - 28
top left - 3 (including capture)
bottom left - 6
bottom - 21ish
Total: 28 + 21 + 6 + 3 = 58

White has:
left - 6 points maybe?
top left - 8 points
top - 11 points
komi - 7
total: 32 points

Maybe I can make something happen in the middle, but it's definitely hard to say I was winning.

So maybe trying the 3-3 invasion is reasonable...?

Anyway, later in the game, this move is ridiculous:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . X O X O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . O . O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know why I played there - I definitely wasn't reading something. It was more of a "feeling" - and a bad feeling at that!

Instead, the best I can come up with at that point is ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 0 8 . 3 X X 4 X 6 . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X 9 O O 1 X O X O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O . W X X 2 7 O O 5 O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not ideal, but better than dying...
---

I wonder where things went wrong. Earlier, in this shape, I played what I believe to be the "textbook move":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It allowed me to tenuki, however, it cost a lot of points...

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:07 pm

So what are the overall takeaways...?

I think one thing for sure is that I need to stop playing as much based on good feelings.

Here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had a good feeling about attacking just to attack - it just feels good.

And I suppose here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . X O X O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . O . O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The move just feels like it's a good shape or something.

So if I have to summarize a takeaway, I think it'd be:

- Stop playing moves because they *feel* good. See what result you will get, and if it's actually good (in terms of points or life/death).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:27 pm

A couple of points from reviewing with KataGo just now...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indeed, my move here seems likely to be pretty bad. The recommended move is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My thought then was, what if black peeps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . C X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , C . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it seems that the general intuition may be to just play lightly here. Getting the 3-3 in after black made the two low moves, I suppose, makes white more efficient.

So to summarize where I went wrong here:
- I asked myself the question, "how can I fix the peep in sente?"
- But really, I'm thinking maybe this wasn't an important question. I should have first asked, "Do I need to fix the peep?"

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . O X . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought the marked move, above, put pressure on black while getting a base and points for white.

KataGo seems to recommend this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . W . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Definitely seems to put pressure on black... But I don't have a good answer as to why it is better than the move I played in the game. Perhaps it's affecting the outside more, and the outside of the board is more empty and worth more points. But I'm simply reaching for an explanation here rather than understanding the true reason.

---

Seems it was a big difference to play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . O . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . W . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I suppose it's more points.

Anyway, around here, the version of KataGo I am using seems to think white is a little bit ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

By point calculation, that doesn't make sense to me. But I suppose it also means that I might not need to freak out as much about getting more points?

---

The biggest takeaway I want to get from KataGo here is that, even if I answer a question correctly - I might be asking the wrong question. If I am trying to fix a peep, invade, or reduce or whatever... Maybe I should reconsider a now and then whether my plan is the best option.

I remember in one of Inseong's lectures at the US Go Congress this year basically pointing out that a lot of bad moves are "good" in that they have some value. It's just that when you choose that little bit of good value, you might be giving up a bigger value somewhere.

Maybe the peep in this game was like that - I was asking a question of how to get a "good" result for that peep, locally. But really, maybe the 3-3 was a much better "good".

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:43 am

Both of the moves make points but the threats are not comparable. In fact, the threat of you move is potentially point losing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wxc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 6 O X 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 4 O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can revive his stones with this double atari, so

better be good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . O X . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, Black will either have to break out on neutral points, or live with points on the upper side but then White can still pressure Black while making territory.

It's hindsight of course but I think it's reasonable.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:16 am

I remember in one of Inseong's lectures at the US Go Congress this year basically pointing out that a lot of bad moves are "good" in that they have some value. It's just that when you choose that little bit of good value, you might be giving up a bigger value somewhere.

There is a more fundamental way of looking at this - a pro way, not mine, but I'll present it in my own way.

Pros like to make lists of "bad moves". One of the best was made by Kita Fumiko for the Chuo Ki-in in 1923. The significance of the date is that this is effectively when populist go writing began. It was evidently thought that this was one of the first major topics needed to address the masses. Kita said the categories of moves she listed were used by pros in reviewing their own games. They include thank-you moves and slack moves, but quite a few others. Other pros have made such lists, categorised in different ways, and some give sub-lists (e.g. Kobayasho Satoru's "Five Envies" (e.g. invading just because it looks like your opponent may get some territory there otherwise).

I have summarised these lists in Go Wisdom appendices, so there is some English available on them. But there was also a long series in English by a (?French) amateur that appeared in something like the British Go Journal. Can anyone help me out there? What was different about this series, as I recall it, was that the author tried to pinpoint the psychological reasons why we make and moves. Most of us make many bad moves because we play too fast. But why do we play too fast? That sort of thing.

But, irrespective of the categorisation or the length of the lists, it is very easy to understand bad moves (e.g. I played too fast and blundered; I filled in my own liberties; I played a move that helped my opponent - a thank-you move). Because these moves are so easy to understand at almost any decent kyu or dan level, they are easy to eliminate - on paper. In practice, some of emotional or psychological hang-ups or deficiencies that cause them may need to be addressed first.

But if we take that as a doable given, we are left with the Sherlock Holmes kind of dictum: if bad moves are eliminated, what must be left are all good moves.

But there are good moves and very good moves and so on ad infinitum.

Obviously game-deciding urgent moves come first, and, by definition almost, all other moves must be bad. We are in blunder territory here.

But most of the time we do have a choice. How is that choice made. The usual criterion is that a move that has two purposes is better than a move that has one purpose. A move that has three purposes is better than one that has two purposes. And so on ad infinitum.

A move that just takes territory - typical beginner play - can be turned into a better move that also threatens the opponent's base, and that too can be made even better if it prevents bullying by the opponent.

Pro comments very often highlight the goodness of moves that have more than one purpose. A famous example, much discussed in many commentaries, is move 18 by Go Seigen in Game 1 of the Kamakura match. The point was that even Go was unsure where to play. So what he did was to create a move that had more than one purpose - rather too subtly for many of us, perhaps, as his thinking was to create a tedomari/miai situation (one purpose) and to start building a territorial framework (second purpose). There was also an aspect of timing - if he didn't play this move now he might never get it (third purpose). And, finally, Go had a fourth purpose - his move was a probe.

Many multi-purpose moves are easily overlooked because they use umbrella terms. For example, Honinbo Shusai was very fond of tsume (checking moves). These are inherently dual-purpose because by definition they combine a checking move with an extension (the extension element may sometimes be stressed by using the term hirakizume). But Shusai was fond of pointing out that a tsume could also be a probe or a base-making/threatening move. In short it was multipurpose.

Another kind of move, more of a concept than a specific shape, is something I have harped on about here a few times before. This is the Chinese concept of zhao ying or call & response. I prefer to call it a lighthouse move, it being a move in some central point that shines out to all friendly groups tossing about on the stormy wide ocean of the whole board. It is very common in old Chinese literature, and part of the reason must be that it helps massively in keeping groups connected. That is hugely important in old Chinese go because of group tax. But the concept applies in modern go, only there it doesn't have a name. You just see varying phrases such as "this move offers a helping hand to the groups below."

We actually see zhao ying hidden away in a term I chose for a concept in Honinbo Shuei's style of play highlighted by many pros. This is Shuei's L shapes in the centre. These magari moves obviously act as zhao ying moves and so are multi-purpose to start with. But in Shuei's hands they have additional purposes: turning the direction of play (in his favour, of course), escaping long term, providing thickness for the endgame, and so on. As I say, even other pros admire these moves.

But I have highlighted zhao ying also because I believe it is the simplest, and may even best, way to view very many AI moves. In Kirby's first example where he said he played a peep (H18 below; two purposes? - settling his group and attacking the opponent's group), katago came up with a zhao ying move as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This White 1 helps settle the White group and attacks the Black group. But it also (importantly) offers succour to the weak White group in the lower right. It even helps the White group in the upper left, as with normal endgame play this can easily turn into a one-eyed group. Since a zhao ying move is often an umbrella move, this is adding not just one purpose but several in one package. For example, It also separates Black. In addition, it is setting White up (in combination with the White groups below) to be thick in the endgame.

Even if I may not have thought of this move myself, I find it very easy to understand once played. I think this would apply to most players, at least if you start thinking in this "purpose-full" way.

It is easy, quick and hyper-useful to think about the purposes of moves. We may not do it in the subtle way Go Seigen did it above, but we can get much value out of the exercise. Furthermore, although we get no help from AI as to purposes, we do get a rich harvest from pro commentaries.

Commentaries tend to highlight just a few moves, but really we should be listing the purposes for every move. Apart from speeding up the learning process, I posit that this process provides sharp focus and also promotes the mental discipline that we need to avoid the kind of bad moves and blunders that appear in the various lists.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:23 am

Commentaries tend to highlight just a few moves, but really we should be listing the purposes for every move. Apart from speeding up the learning process, I posit that this process provides sharp focus and also promotes the mental discipline that we need to avoid the kind of bad moves and blunders that appear in the various lists.

I like the idea of having a purpose. There seems to be some nuance, however, to be careful of.

I am prone to sometimes playing moves for the purpose of attacking, or to avoid being attacked. This can sometimes be a good thing. However, sometimes I feel rewarded simply by the feeling of attacking, even if I am not actually producing value. In other words, attacking feels good to me sometimes, even if I lose points from the attack.

So I have been trying - sometimes unsuccessfully - to play moves that have a concrete value.

In the example provided, I can easily see some of this value: it is worth points on the top.

The recommended move here certainly has a purpose - and I totally agree that it benefits the weak group on the right.

However, it is harder for me to see the direct value in this case.

I still think it is the correct move - however, it is difficult for me to distinguish from moves where I have some purpose (eg. attack just to attack), without getting value. I play these types of moves, too.

The center of the board is a little difficult to interpret.

I suppose in this case, aiding a weak group while attacking is somewhat clear in terms of value. But it's a little difficult to recognize, since I am actively trying to play moves not only with purpose, but also with value.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:26 am

I suppose there's also something to be said that black can push in the same area, almost in sente.

So the area has value for both players.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:12 am

Black can revive his stones with this double atari, so better be good.

Seems hard to come up with such a threat. In the game, I just drew back (my initial move on top was gote).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:48 am

I played a game on Tygem. The time settings were quick for my taste, but I need to get used to faster time settings, too.

Here is the initial SGF:

I lost by 8.5.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:58 am

Some highlights...

I think this move came back to bite me later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's gote, I guess, but I think it's more solid to just play here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, my plans look inconsistent:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I played the splitting move to begin with to aim at cutting. But then it didn't seem to work cleanly, so I came back on the right.

If I'm going to do that, I think I should just do it immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . O . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can see how black answers, and adjust accordingly.

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The lean and cut here is questionable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X 3 . O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O . 1 2 . , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's clear that it impacts the corner when I commit to that. Maybe it's simpler to just jump out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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I have a habit of this kind of move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X O . O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . W O . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . O X O O X . X C O . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think it's better to just answer the peep, and decide what I want to do later. The move I played gets a small amount, but it also just makes me heavy and have to respond to the peep anyway.

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Black seemed to get a lot of points attacking here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X . X O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X O O . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X O O . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . O X . X . O O X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I ignored several times, so it makes sense. So maybe I should try to be even lighter:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X . X O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . W . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . X O O . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . O X O O X X X O O . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . O X . X . O O X O O . . X O X . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I just need to have something live in that area, and I don't need to make a lot of points. I want to avoid black from gaining a lot from attacking...

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So overall, what are my thoughts?

This was a quick game, so maybe my instincts weren't the best. The shape in the bottom left is definitely something I should have known better. I lost points there for sure.

I also think that it might have been OK to tenuki a lot, but I should be lighter when I do come to save those stones.

Those are the highlights that stand out to me.

The guy seemed a bit stronger than Tygem 4d, which is what I am used to. But maybe I am getting a bit weaker, so it's hard to say.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:20 am

I like the idea of having a purpose.

In the rest of your reply, you say both a "move" has a purpose and "I" have a purpose. I think it's important not to mix these things up. A purpose for a move is not a plan. It is simply the justification for playing it (e.g. it creates thickness). It is about here an now. A plan is about the future - to do something (e.g. create thickness) in order to achieve something.

Furthermore, you talk of "a" purpose. I (following pros) am recommending having multiple purposes, the more the better. You can then think of purpose as a unit of measurement - approximate it is true, but it's workable in practice, and that gives a "value." In practice, it seems, almost no pro move has just one purpose. Two seems the norm (or the mode, if you prefer). Three is not uncommon. Four is not exactly rare, but tend to get a move talked about. Five or more might mean you are Shuei incarnate.

As regards value, it seems best for humans to regard each move as an investment (another way of looking at "purpose") rather than a purchase. This is what pros do when they talk about thickness in the endgame, for instance. The bigger and broader your share portfolio is, the more you are covered as regards risk.

The true value of such investments is another one of those things that your intuition takes care of on your behalf, if you give it enough dough to make bread.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am

A plan is about the future - to do something (e.g. create thickness) in order to achieve something.

Indeed, my "something" is sometimes questionable

I will sometimes get what I want, but what I wanted wasn't that helpful.

kvasir · Post by **kvasir** » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:08 am

Don't be taken in by number guys and don't be taken in by numbers, guys! They talk about 1-purpose, 2-purpose and n-purpose moves, it is all numbers and soon they will invent fractional purpose moves. Take it from a word guy, like me that knows professionals, that this is pure number talk.

Purpose is something that emerges from a conscious minds interaction with the outside world. It is merely a shadow image of the reality that lies beyond. Take it from a word guy, like myself that knows professional, that you need not count purposes. Only if you see through to the real thing can you have real understanding. These examples were talked about before but I'll revisit only hoping to shed light on that they have nothing to do with number talk.

Emergency measure

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this example white played resilient shape close to black's strong corner but then became worried about his weakness at the marked spot. The problem here is that white chose to defend in a way that makes black stronger, this is a big no-no, and has nothing to do with counting purposes. Such defensive measures should be left for emergencies when there is nothing else left. The game move might be a good move if white instead waited for black to strike first, see the next diagram. Even in this case this way may help black more than white since the corner is open and white therefore still has other options. If white doesn't like any of this, maybe only in this moment, and opts to defend it would be better to simply jump into the center than it is to strengthen black so much. The way that white helped black in exchange for a chance to defend is somewhat similar to paying the yakuza for protection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O 2 O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Outside is important

Here white played toward the side, thinking to put pressure on black by attacking the eye space while making good endgame. It is a true n-purpose move, what could be the problem? Well, besides that black can't make the eye space for free, it is that the outside is very important. It is nigh impossible to put a number on playing first in the center and if black is forced to make moves on the inside to make eye space then that is good for white. White's outside moves really does have a huge impact on the game and threatens to capture black on a large scale, while white's inside move is slow. The problem is not the number of purposes and the marked move is really a bread and butter move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O . . M . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Try normal moves before drawing conclusions

White didn't block after

and allowed black to smash through his shape. It doesn't matter how many n-purposes

and

had because if you don't consider

then that is all out with the bathwater. Here I would not conclude that there was something wrong with

and

, besides that this looks fine, the issue is that what white actually played was certain to be bad. Also it is possible that black could have done worse, see other diagram. Again, it has nothing to do with counting purposes. Instead it is about not discarding good moves and that applies both during the game and when studying.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 X 3 . O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O 5 1 2 . , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Other diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O 5 O . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . O , O 3 O X 1 , . . . X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aw, number guys everywhere. Is it infectious

I remember thinking some of the number guys were word guys before.

Life In 19x19

Kirby's Study Journal

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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

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