Thanks, kvasir, for the comments. I can feel and understand pretty much all of what you mentioned. It makes a lot of sense, now. I like your point that I can even wait for black to peep before taking such measures.
I'm too friendly with the yakuza, I suppose.
The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:
I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
If black ignore a move toward the center here in order to play on the top and secure life, you can seal him in with one more move. That would nearly connect your groups, too, so the life and death of the top group would not be an issue.Kirby wrote:
The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:
I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.
It’s hard to say how many points a center facing wall would be worth, but surely it’s more than the 15 points white would get if they take that entire top area. (Well, black get some points up there with a move up top, so maybe it’s a 20 point swing?) Realistically, I think black would respond toward the center, so you’d get to keep putting pressure on his group, get some strong moves toward the center, and quite possibly still get to play the move you played in the game.
Essentially, I think the threat of taking away black’s base isn’t so bad when he can easily run to the middle and live (or at least KataGo thinks so), so the timing is wrong.
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gennan
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
My guess is that KataGo intuitively takes into account this sort of aji when judging the value of a move at a:Kirby wrote:
The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:
I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.
A white move at b, provoking black a, would expose white's thinness on the upper side.
A white move at a leads white's group out into the center, reducing the severity of
and black b. By strengthening this white group, white also increases the aji for an invasion at c later in the game.So white a may be the true multi-purpose move here, while white b may be a bit passive/slow, losing the initiative for only a handful of local endgame points.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
These days, I am playing a casual correspondence game with my friend, Dennis, from the Seattle Go Center. More than a competitive game, it's more of a friendship match that we are using as a mechanism to remain social with one another.
Excluding that game, I think it has been since October of 2022 that I've played a game of go - probably the longest hiatus I've had since I started playing the game. A lot of people may be aware of the health issues our family is experiencing - I'm not exactly private with such matters. Currently, I think we are able to live happily in the moment, which is nice.
Significant events like that have a way of making you reevaluate life:
- Am I spending my time well?
- What's the meaning of everything? How do I establish better meaning in my life?
- Who do I want to be? What do I want the future to look like?
These are hard questions to answer well - at least in a satisfying way. Several times now, I've gone down the rabbit hole of asking myself what I want to do or become. What do I want the future to look like? How do I want to find meaning in my life? After months of thought, I still don't have a satisfying answer.
As a distraction, for awhile, I tried playing some chess. I wanted something new to do; I wanted to break out of my typical routine. It was kind of fun, and I did a few problems. After some time, I even played a few games. I used the default time settings on chess.com, which led to some pretty quick games. One thing that stuck out to me was how easily I could lose on time. In one game, I had captured most of my opponent's pieces; unfortunately, I had also used much more time. As a result, I just lost the game. Time was up, and I lost.
Sometimes, I think I'm doing the same thing when I debate with myself over what is most meaningful in my life, or what I should pursue "seriously" going forward. I'm spending time trying to find the optimal move for me in the current situation, yet maybe I'm just running down the clock. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. That's what some people say, right?
So maybe I should throw myself back onto the go bandwagon. But if I make that choice, it'd still be nice to establish some form of meaning. I'm not sure if go is the optimal answer to establishing meaning in my life, but if it's at least a "good" answer, then there should be some meaning to be found behind the activity.
Viktor Frankl has a book, "Man's Search for Meaning". I liked it. Frankl was a Holocaust survivor who lived to establish logotherapy - a type of psychotherapy promoting the discovery of meaning in life. While I've been through some tough times, Frankl has a personal account of suffering, which helped him establish some of his theories. According to logotherapy, meaning can be established in a few ways:
1. Accomplishment and/or achievement. Through achievement (probably creating new things fits into this category), individuals are capable of finding meaning by creating an impact toward something greater than the self. It means that there is a significance to that person's life - after all, it can be seen by the impact they've made.
2. Experiences and/or relationships. By experiencing and/or connecting with something greater than oneself, individuals can find meaning. This form of meaning may be more passive than the impact of #1, but can still show something real: that which is beyond and/or greater than oneself.
3. Meaning through suffering. The attitude one takes in any given circumstance may be meaningful. Even when something bad happens, it may be possible to find meaning and/or impact from that event.
Jokes about suffering on the go board aside, I suppose playing go can be a mechanism to find meaning in categories #1 and #2. Achievement can happen by getting better at the game. Maybe it means achieving a certain rank or winning a certain tournament. To make a big impact, though, I wonder if that achievement and/or accomplishment should be unique. For example, is becoming "just another 5d" that meaningful? Whether I am here or not doesn't impact the fact that there are many 5d players in the world. I digress...
Meaning could also be found through the experience of playing go itself. Being absorbed in an activity that outlives oneself could be meaningful. Connecting to a community of go players larger than oneself could also have some meaning. It's a little passive, I suppose. And again, even if I were not there for the experience and/or the connection, those larger entities (the game of go itself, and the go community) continue to exist regardless of my contribution.
---
On one hand, I think I should just play go again. Maybe it'll be something good to take my mind off of other things. Like the chess timeout analogy, by spending all of my time contemplating the "best move", I may just be running out the clock.
On the other hand, without a strong sense of motivation and/or meaning, my pursuits are half-hearted. I can put moves on the board just to play the game. But it's not that meaningful. I will probably just get frustrated with the games that I lose.
The conclusion is... I'm not sure. I think I don't need to "run out the clock" considering go, again. But I should probably have at least some small form of motivation and/or goal to start things up again.
Excluding that game, I think it has been since October of 2022 that I've played a game of go - probably the longest hiatus I've had since I started playing the game. A lot of people may be aware of the health issues our family is experiencing - I'm not exactly private with such matters. Currently, I think we are able to live happily in the moment, which is nice.
Significant events like that have a way of making you reevaluate life:
- Am I spending my time well?
- What's the meaning of everything? How do I establish better meaning in my life?
- Who do I want to be? What do I want the future to look like?
These are hard questions to answer well - at least in a satisfying way. Several times now, I've gone down the rabbit hole of asking myself what I want to do or become. What do I want the future to look like? How do I want to find meaning in my life? After months of thought, I still don't have a satisfying answer.
As a distraction, for awhile, I tried playing some chess. I wanted something new to do; I wanted to break out of my typical routine. It was kind of fun, and I did a few problems. After some time, I even played a few games. I used the default time settings on chess.com, which led to some pretty quick games. One thing that stuck out to me was how easily I could lose on time. In one game, I had captured most of my opponent's pieces; unfortunately, I had also used much more time. As a result, I just lost the game. Time was up, and I lost.
Sometimes, I think I'm doing the same thing when I debate with myself over what is most meaningful in my life, or what I should pursue "seriously" going forward. I'm spending time trying to find the optimal move for me in the current situation, yet maybe I'm just running down the clock. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. That's what some people say, right?
So maybe I should throw myself back onto the go bandwagon. But if I make that choice, it'd still be nice to establish some form of meaning. I'm not sure if go is the optimal answer to establishing meaning in my life, but if it's at least a "good" answer, then there should be some meaning to be found behind the activity.
Viktor Frankl has a book, "Man's Search for Meaning". I liked it. Frankl was a Holocaust survivor who lived to establish logotherapy - a type of psychotherapy promoting the discovery of meaning in life. While I've been through some tough times, Frankl has a personal account of suffering, which helped him establish some of his theories. According to logotherapy, meaning can be established in a few ways:
1. Accomplishment and/or achievement. Through achievement (probably creating new things fits into this category), individuals are capable of finding meaning by creating an impact toward something greater than the self. It means that there is a significance to that person's life - after all, it can be seen by the impact they've made.
2. Experiences and/or relationships. By experiencing and/or connecting with something greater than oneself, individuals can find meaning. This form of meaning may be more passive than the impact of #1, but can still show something real: that which is beyond and/or greater than oneself.
3. Meaning through suffering. The attitude one takes in any given circumstance may be meaningful. Even when something bad happens, it may be possible to find meaning and/or impact from that event.
Jokes about suffering on the go board aside, I suppose playing go can be a mechanism to find meaning in categories #1 and #2. Achievement can happen by getting better at the game. Maybe it means achieving a certain rank or winning a certain tournament. To make a big impact, though, I wonder if that achievement and/or accomplishment should be unique. For example, is becoming "just another 5d" that meaningful? Whether I am here or not doesn't impact the fact that there are many 5d players in the world. I digress...
Meaning could also be found through the experience of playing go itself. Being absorbed in an activity that outlives oneself could be meaningful. Connecting to a community of go players larger than oneself could also have some meaning. It's a little passive, I suppose. And again, even if I were not there for the experience and/or the connection, those larger entities (the game of go itself, and the go community) continue to exist regardless of my contribution.
---
On one hand, I think I should just play go again. Maybe it'll be something good to take my mind off of other things. Like the chess timeout analogy, by spending all of my time contemplating the "best move", I may just be running out the clock.
On the other hand, without a strong sense of motivation and/or meaning, my pursuits are half-hearted. I can put moves on the board just to play the game. But it's not that meaningful. I will probably just get frustrated with the games that I lose.
The conclusion is... I'm not sure. I think I don't need to "run out the clock" considering go, again. But I should probably have at least some small form of motivation and/or goal to start things up again.
be immersed
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Knotwilg
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I have a couple of thoughts to offer related to your question "who do I want to become" which to me is a variation on the "meaning of life" question.
Joseph Campbell, the writer-anthropologist-philologist who came to fame as a kind of life coach avant la lettre with his "follow your bliss" dictum once said something that makes more sense to me than that one. "People are not looking for the meaning of life, they are longing for the sensation of being alive". In my case, it's been rare indeed to find that sensation in my professional activities. I have found it more in spare time projects, like those four vibrant days when me and my band went into the studio recording. I won't dwell on that experience or what it has meant for me - there are other examples to be found in private time and many of these involve nature. Nowadays I'm not so much looking for a purpose, rather trying to maximize the time I "feel alive". Not that it's easier to achieve but thinking about it that way is easier.
I have developed my own framework for happiness, which states 4 major directions one can take when seeking it and which of those is more appropriate depending on what you're (not) doing today.
1. analyze your (potential) activities along two axes, to what extent they make you (un)happy and to what extent they require effort. The low hanging fruit is in the two quadrants seldom discussed: effortless happiness (do more!) and effortful misery (do less!). The traditional opposition is that between effortful happiness (doing more of that is hard) and effortless misery (doing less of that is hard). The positive feedback coming from the low hanging fruit can be harvested into the harder quadrants.
2. whatever you do, be "in the moment" and don't spend additional energy on sorrow or desire. This is traditionally called "mindfulness".
3. somewhat related to mindfulness is to involve the senses more in activities and involve the emotions more into decision making. When I'm doing something, rather than being "mindful" I try activating the senses: what do I see? what do I hear? what do I smell? what do I feel with my hands or feet? Sorrow often comes to me while driving or when going to sleep. I try to compensate for all the pondering by engaging emotionally first: what do I feel? Is it anger? Anxiety? Where do I feel it? In the nose? In the neck? When making a decision I try the same: how does that foresight make me feel? Happy? Worried? Where's that feeling? What am I associating with that feeling.
4. Last but not least, the happiness industry tends to focus a lot on the self. What about the others? Who do I miss? Should I give them a call? Ask if I can visit them or they me? What can I do for others? Who needs help? A surprising amount of happiness comes from doing selfless stuff.
If you are a thinker, #1 leads to more thinking, so 2, 3 and 4 might give a fresher angle to your search for happiness. For those who "just do", #2 comes natural already, so 1, 3 and 4 may do the trick. Sensitive people shouldn't activate their senses and emotions even more and might be better off with 1, 2 and 4; and those who always think about others first, should perhaps invest in 1, 2, 3. Myself I have not only learned to invest more in some people but also to deinvest in people that were making me unhappy, even if (or rather because) they felt entitled to be a part of my life.
Let me know if this amateur psychology makes any sense or helps.
Good luck!
(BTW - I think I've written this before and mentioned that whenever I re-evaluate my own activities, neither Go nor participating in Internet forums is making me feel all too alive)
Joseph Campbell, the writer-anthropologist-philologist who came to fame as a kind of life coach avant la lettre with his "follow your bliss" dictum once said something that makes more sense to me than that one. "People are not looking for the meaning of life, they are longing for the sensation of being alive". In my case, it's been rare indeed to find that sensation in my professional activities. I have found it more in spare time projects, like those four vibrant days when me and my band went into the studio recording. I won't dwell on that experience or what it has meant for me - there are other examples to be found in private time and many of these involve nature. Nowadays I'm not so much looking for a purpose, rather trying to maximize the time I "feel alive". Not that it's easier to achieve but thinking about it that way is easier.
I have developed my own framework for happiness, which states 4 major directions one can take when seeking it and which of those is more appropriate depending on what you're (not) doing today.
1. analyze your (potential) activities along two axes, to what extent they make you (un)happy and to what extent they require effort. The low hanging fruit is in the two quadrants seldom discussed: effortless happiness (do more!) and effortful misery (do less!). The traditional opposition is that between effortful happiness (doing more of that is hard) and effortless misery (doing less of that is hard). The positive feedback coming from the low hanging fruit can be harvested into the harder quadrants.
2. whatever you do, be "in the moment" and don't spend additional energy on sorrow or desire. This is traditionally called "mindfulness".
3. somewhat related to mindfulness is to involve the senses more in activities and involve the emotions more into decision making. When I'm doing something, rather than being "mindful" I try activating the senses: what do I see? what do I hear? what do I smell? what do I feel with my hands or feet? Sorrow often comes to me while driving or when going to sleep. I try to compensate for all the pondering by engaging emotionally first: what do I feel? Is it anger? Anxiety? Where do I feel it? In the nose? In the neck? When making a decision I try the same: how does that foresight make me feel? Happy? Worried? Where's that feeling? What am I associating with that feeling.
4. Last but not least, the happiness industry tends to focus a lot on the self. What about the others? Who do I miss? Should I give them a call? Ask if I can visit them or they me? What can I do for others? Who needs help? A surprising amount of happiness comes from doing selfless stuff.
If you are a thinker, #1 leads to more thinking, so 2, 3 and 4 might give a fresher angle to your search for happiness. For those who "just do", #2 comes natural already, so 1, 3 and 4 may do the trick. Sensitive people shouldn't activate their senses and emotions even more and might be better off with 1, 2 and 4; and those who always think about others first, should perhaps invest in 1, 2, 3. Myself I have not only learned to invest more in some people but also to deinvest in people that were making me unhappy, even if (or rather because) they felt entitled to be a part of my life.
Let me know if this amateur psychology makes any sense or helps.
Good luck!
(BTW - I think I've written this before and mentioned that whenever I re-evaluate my own activities, neither Go nor participating in Internet forums is making me feel all too alive)
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jlt
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
But you still do both, meaning that you need intellectual stimulation and social interaction. Probably go doesn't stimulate you as much as in the past: once you approach your maximum potential, it becomes increasingly harder to learn new things. And social interaction on the internet is less satisfying than in real life, but is still better than nothing.Knotwilg wrote:neither Go nor participating in Internet forums is making me feel all too alive
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remotecontrol
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
That's pretty much the same experience I had with chess recently.
Dabbled in it a few times over the years, but last year sat down with some books and studied some tactics and strategy, a new pastime.
Got good enough to win a few games with minimal blunders by both players using a bit of strategy.
The time settings do take some getting used to compared to go. Medium rapid was ok.
You know how there's people who have two wives, on either side of the country?
I've returned to go now. someone said "The game of Go is like having an old friend", I agree.
Dabbled in it a few times over the years, but last year sat down with some books and studied some tactics and strategy, a new pastime.
Got good enough to win a few games with minimal blunders by both players using a bit of strategy.
The time settings do take some getting used to compared to go. Medium rapid was ok.
You know how there's people who have two wives, on either side of the country?
I've returned to go now. someone said "The game of Go is like having an old friend", I agree.
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xela
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
After going round the block on this a few times, I'm come to the conclusion that it doesn't pay to overthink these things! Pondering the concepts of "meaning" or "inner peace" too hard can take you further from those things.
(Having said that, I'm sure I'll still do it again in the future. These things go in cycles...)
What's the point of playing go if you're only an amateur 5d? What's the point of doing anything if you're not the best in the world at it? And even if you are literally the best in the world, it's still possible to set a higher standard. (There's the joke about von Neumann getting depressed: a friend tried to cheer him up by pointing out that he was the best mathematician in the world, and he replied "but I'm not as good as Hilbert!")
Viewed objectively, go feels futile to me: as well as being well short of 5d, there isn't much of an in-person community where I live. But it's kind of a "slow food movement" thing, an older way oflife gaming that's deeper and less frenetic than our screen-based pursuits. (Online go involves a bit of cognitive dissonance. But I value the people I've met this way.)
Sometimes you just have to follow your instincts. If it feels right (and isn't clearly harmful or irresponsible), do it?
(Having said that, I'm sure I'll still do it again in the future. These things go in cycles...)
What's the point of playing go if you're only an amateur 5d? What's the point of doing anything if you're not the best in the world at it? And even if you are literally the best in the world, it's still possible to set a higher standard. (There's the joke about von Neumann getting depressed: a friend tried to cheer him up by pointing out that he was the best mathematician in the world, and he replied "but I'm not as good as Hilbert!")
Viewed objectively, go feels futile to me: as well as being well short of 5d, there isn't much of an in-person community where I live. But it's kind of a "slow food movement" thing, an older way of
Sometimes you just have to follow your instincts. If it feels right (and isn't clearly harmful or irresponsible), do it?
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I’ve played a lot of go since last summer. The Congress we both attended was as motivating for me as it seems to have been demotivating for you. I’ve seen some real progress in the last year, too, after being stuck for a while. But even when things are going well, go cannot really provide me with happiness or meaning. When I try to make it hold that burden (and I occasionally do), the game becomes something that draws life from me rather than givingit.
Go can, I think, be part of a healthy, happy life. But it cannot provide it, not really. Since there were a few books of philosophy quoted in the last few posts, I’ll add one of my own, from St. Augustine’s Confessions: “Why do you go on and on walking along difficult and wearisome paths? There is no rest where you are seeking rest. Seek what you are seeking, but it is not where you are seeking it. You are seeking the happy life in the land of death: it is not there. How indeed can there be a happy life where there is no life at all?” (from the recent translation by philosopher Thomas Williams)
For Augustine, the answer to this conundrum is to seek life in God, the only source of true life, and receive the beautiful and good things in this world (of which go is one, I think) as a gift from him. When they are in their rightful place, those things that are good and beautiful and true do provide satisfaction. But even those things that fit that description can be destructive when we pursue them as ends in themselves.
I think the question of whether go can be part of a full life of meaning is one you will have to answer for yourself. But if you are looking for it to provide meaning, I think it will only disappoint you again.
Go can, I think, be part of a healthy, happy life. But it cannot provide it, not really. Since there were a few books of philosophy quoted in the last few posts, I’ll add one of my own, from St. Augustine’s Confessions: “Why do you go on and on walking along difficult and wearisome paths? There is no rest where you are seeking rest. Seek what you are seeking, but it is not where you are seeking it. You are seeking the happy life in the land of death: it is not there. How indeed can there be a happy life where there is no life at all?” (from the recent translation by philosopher Thomas Williams)
For Augustine, the answer to this conundrum is to seek life in God, the only source of true life, and receive the beautiful and good things in this world (of which go is one, I think) as a gift from him. When they are in their rightful place, those things that are good and beautiful and true do provide satisfaction. But even those things that fit that description can be destructive when we pursue them as ends in themselves.
I think the question of whether go can be part of a full life of meaning is one you will have to answer for yourself. But if you are looking for it to provide meaning, I think it will only disappoint you again.
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dust
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
A rather old blogpost on the connections between games, life and meaning that I came across again recently and reminded me of Kirby's ponderings:
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/12/l ... imate-game
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/12/l ... imate-game
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Elom0
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I would disagree that it's wrong to look to go to 바둑 to provide meaning. I believe in DNA philosophy, that the same meaning is being expressed through many different things, and different people are only able to discover different parts of that same meaning in certain things. Some people are best at discovering some aspects of the universal truth through 바둑.jeromie wrote: . . . But if you are looking for it to provide meaning, I think it will only disappoint you again.
I believe that even the attempts to make statements about whether God exists or not or what god is like is completely hubristic, indeed infinitely so. By definition we cannot make any statements about what even the possibility of what a meta-level being is like when by definition we are under it's meta. It's like fictional characters in a story debating whether there is an author to their story, indeed, it is not like it but it is exactly that. The ultimate foolishness. Instead, I see fulfilment in things working in harmony as it is intended multiplied by how natural it is. So for example a high level of fulfilment is body and brain working as it should and according to what is most natural, and where conflict is inevitable, we can deem which aspect we want to define ourselves by according to which feels spiritually best and then prioritise it's natural working. And to me this is represented in 바둑 in how groups work internally to live or die and how they work with each other over the entire board.
Hmm I might be starting to be able to write at the level I used to when I was 15
Maybe Kirby has reach the limit of what his personality can glean from 바둑 without a major revolution in his entire approach. Maybe it's time to be foolish and think about it from the perspective of God? I wish I could go back to my 13 year old self and tell it the answer to feeling there was no home page for 바둑 was it's lack of internationalisation, things like Korea and Japan being seperated.
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Elom0, I don’t want to hijack Brian’s thread, but if you’d like
To discuss this topic further you can send me a direct message and I’d be happy to share a bit more of my perspective.
To discuss this topic further you can send me a direct message and I’d be happy to share a bit more of my perspective.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Interesting article. I think the author is stretching to make the analogy work here, though:dust wrote:A rather old blogpost on the connections between games, life and meaning that I came across again recently and reminded me of Kirby's ponderings:
https://stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/12/l ... imate-game
Many games, including go, have a clear objective. Having fun and growing is a BENEFIT of playing go, but the purpose of the game is to get more points than the opponent. In chess, the purpose is to get checkmate.What’s the purpose of a game? The purpose of a game is to enjoy the experience — to have fun. Another reason for playing games is to grow, since games can be wonderful teachers. Having fun and growing sounds like a nice way to spend real life, doesn’t it?
Some may argue with the wording. Maybe it's the objective or the goal to get more points in go.
Whatever the case, it's a key aspect in many games that isn't clear in real life.
For example, I can move pieces around on the chess board without regard to taking care of the king. Maybe I have a fun time, but I am not playing the game well in that case.
Having a fun experience in life is one way to get meaning, I guess. But I think many games have a clearer and more meaningful objective.
be immersed