Life In 19x19

here is the worse game, quite ambarasing to post that, so I will hide it
[edit] Game #2[/edit]

And at least one I won ! I really prefer that kind of games...
3 games... what a night ! what a go birthday !
(well I remember now that I just said a few post earlier that I wanted to post not only games ... )

bon... au lit maintenant
[edit] Game #3[/edit]

Vital points before big points! You are both leaving too many unsettled positions, where whoever plays first will gain a big advantage (or avoid a big disadvantage).

After the game looks good for W. B now has two weak groups, and W should be able to profit from the attack. In fact, killing one group or the other seems quite possible, so it might be best for B to work out a good way to sacrifice something to avoid such a disaster.

Through , you executed the double attack perfectly. The two B groups are separated, neither group has a base, and both groups have become too big to sacrifice. B is in big trouble.

is slack. This lets one group get a base, and has little effect on the other group. Try playing out some sequences starting with P17 or Q18 and see if B can live inside or escape. Even if B manages this, W will get much more strength in the process than a single stone at L13.

After more or less settles the upper group (W still has aji around P18), the R12 group has become extremely weak. The safety of this group dwarfs any merely large play elsewhere on the board. If W attacks at S11, will B tenuki to play something like D6? W could then capture on a large scale with a move like O10. That might actually be the best plan for B, but I can't see it happening in this game. When the S12 group starts running, W will get to attack it profitably for the next 100 moves.

was a very narrow extension from a strong group. Step back from the board, look at the big picture, and see if a move like C14 or D14 doesn't look better. I think W needs to use the strength of the K13 and C6 stones to do more than make a few points of territory. With this stength in the background, an invasion will not come under strong attack, so you can easily break up the B position here. In fact, the lone B stone at D11 would look just as weak as the W "invasion" stone. So it would be better to think of the suggested W move as a splitting attack, backed up by strength, rather than a weak invasion to reduce B territory.

is an interesting idea, if the plan was to force B to live down here, in order to build up strength to attack K9 and R12. But locally you gave B a lot of territory and lost sente. Another common idea is to play the sequence M4-M3-O4, to press B low and make outside thickness in sente. Or you could play a double-purpose move like L5, threatening the K9 stone as well as placements below like M2. However, none of this thickness will matter if K9 and R12 both manage to live. So again this seems like a good time to attack, before B can make a base. S11 still looks like a good place to start to the attack. You can play forcing moves against the lower group later as needed, depending on how the attack develops.

:b127: catches W in a ladder, though neither player seems to have realized it

:w142: at M8 would probably kill the B center, and should certainly kill either this group or the R12 group. With so much surrounding strength, why not play the eye-stealing move and go for the kill? :w144: at N9 would still be good shape, and it is not clear how B could get a second eye. When you finally started playing a tough move at :w146:, your position was much weaker, and it was probably too late to expect to kill everything. So at least keep the two groups separated and kill the R12 group. For example, :w150: at P10 would still be very strong.

Hi mitsun,

Thank you very much for your comments (Game #1). I'm happy as some of the options at least went into my head during the game. I'm less happy of my judgement...

mitsun wrote:Vital points before big points!

I will add this one to my think list, but to indentify these points is still a challenge for me.

mitsun wrote: is slack.

Sure, I can see that now, removing the base left the group weak, and my L13 is not usefull, wrong choice here.

mitsun wrote: :b127: catches W in a ladder, though neither player seems to have realized it

That comment surprised me... during the game, I read the ladder, and thougth it was working for me... but what a missread...

mitsun wrote: :w142: at M8 would probably kill the B center, and should certainly kill either this group or the R12 group.

Sure, I should have been more confident here...

on Game #3, blacked played on the 5-3 point, as I dont know any thing about that point for now, I think its a good opportunity for me to strat studying that point.

First I never remember its name... moku... moku somthing is it ? ok let's go to sensei and check... here we go "mokuhazushi" so first thing I will try to remember that name...

Now, I played 6. after the game, I looked into "igowin joseki" and saw that one one possible approach, but is not in the answer to ... so is wrong and why is now the question ... what do you think about that ?

Game #3 starting position :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 6 . 7 . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here's what a quick pro game search showed

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 6 . 7 . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Is wrong? It is hard to say. Or if it is wrong, it is unlikely to be far wrong. "a" reverts to joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 8 . 7 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But let's look at the game continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 a . . 7 b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . 2 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

is good. Very good, IMO. As Bruce Wilcox says, it breaks the sector line between the and . Furthermore, it pushes through a relatively small gap. The smaller the gap you push through, the stronger the play, as a rule. White now threatens both of those Black stones.

IMO, is questionable. Better to secure the corner by a play at 10 or probably "a".

is good. It makes a base for White and attacks on both sides.

is not so good. It invites the hane at "b", which strengthens Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . 2 . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Instead, the pincer at here is good. Black would like to play here to make a base for . It is the follow through of , which threatened both sides.

Thank you Bill !

the "weird": was an idea that went into my head inspired by anthoer joseki
that doesn't have that much in common to this one... and... the lack of other idea...
but I like your pincer idea at K16.

oufff... 5 defeats in a row...
In each game, at least one invasion failed (invading group beeing killed).

So I think I should change something in my playing.... but I still don't know exactly what

Maybe I'm trying to invade too late, or I'm doing it the wrong way...

Here is an example game, the worse invasion I tryied is at 79... maybe I should have attacked M12 first and build some helping group first... Any comments welcome.

So, when black attaches in the bottom right, that makes this area urgent. You have the local advantage, being a move ahead, so you may want to hane on the outside. Whatever you do, DON'T tenuki for . The difference between one side or the other getting the hane at the head of two is huge.

At there is a difference between leaving things open (not forcing your opponent to take thick positions) and playing tenuki when there are urgent moves to be played. At this point, white already has 2 moves he really needs to take: P3 and something to stabilize the right side. P16 also seems nice.


is fine locally, but is wishy-washy. You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner.

is small when the right side is still so urgent.

: just seal off the right in sente and then take a big right-side point.

Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated.

Black is too strong here. This is not an invasion, but suicide. The time to do something here (if you wanted to) was before you gave black the wall extending down from the center-top.

Hi skydyr,

Thanks for your comments...

skydyr wrote:So, when black attaches in the bottom right, that makes this area urgent. You have the local advantage, being a move ahead, so you may want to hane on the outside.
Whatever you do, DON'T tenuki for . The difference between one side or the other getting the hane at the head of two is huge.
At there is a difference between leaving things open (not forcing your opponent to take thick positions) and playing tenuki when there are urgent moves to be played. At this point, white already has 2 moves he really needs to take: P3 and something to stabilize the right side. P16 also seems nice.

Sure, in that game, I was letting a lot of unsettled group, I was thinking that was ok in handicap game when playing white, but I still need to find the right way to do it. and to identfiy better when I can tenuki.
I think that's related to my difficuty to identify urgent moves. I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome

skydyr wrote: is fine locally, but is wishy-washy.
You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner.

Oh... ok.... I was thinking this one was fine... but that's another one of my problems... I'm not enougth focused... I ofen play a move and then try something else... I need more focus on what I want to achieve.

skydyr wrote: is small when the right side is still so urgent.

ok, would you play something in the center of the two right groups like a,b,c or d ? or first extends on P4 (e or f) or even maybe (g) ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm29
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . g X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . f O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . e X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

skydyr wrote: : just seal off the right in sente and then take a big right-side point.

ok I see

skydyr wrote: Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated.

I tryed and lived, but I also needed too I can play it at "a" to help

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm49
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . a O . . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 Q X X . , .
$$ | . 3 O X O X O . . X .
$$ | . . . 1 O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------------[/go]

skydyr wrote: Black is too strong here. This is not an invasion, but suicide. The time to do something here (if you wanted to) was before you gave black the wall extending down from the center-top.

That's a big point for me, sometimes, I cannot help playing impossible invasion... In his book "how not to play go" I think Yuan Zhou called that the "red eye" problem,
always seeing the opponent territory being bigger then our,
and then trying anything to reduce it instead of just playing usefull move...

Finally, I plaed two more game yesterday and they both went fine... but in the first one, what an early resignation from black... I think it was even ahead...

oca wrote:Hi skydyr,

Thanks for your comments...

I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome

Experience? Not really sure. Maybe looking at stronger players' games.

skydyr wrote: is fine locally, but is wishy-washy.
You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner.

Oh... ok.... I was thinking this one was fine... but that's another one of my problems... I'm not enougth focused... I ofen play a move and then try something else... I need more focus on what I want to achieve.

You can invade the corner instead, but the key is to do one or the other and not lose both.

skydyr wrote: is small when the right side is still so urgent.

ok, would you play something in the center of the two right groups like a,b,c or d ? or first extends on P4 (e or f) or even maybe (g) ?

$$Wcm29
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . g X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . f O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . e X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm29
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . g X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . c d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . f O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . e X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Honestly, it's hard to play because white owes two moves, I feel. I'd love to take E or F, but my concern is that white will probably get them in gote, letting black split the right side. Maybe take G and try to keep sente to play one line below B.

skydyr wrote: Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated.

I tryed and lived, but I also needed too I can play it at "a" to help

$$Wcm49
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . a O . . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 Q X X . , .
$$ | . 3 O X O X O . . X .
$$ | . . . 1 O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm49
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . a O . . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 Q X X . , .
$$ | . 3 O X O X O . . X .
$$ | . . . 1 O X X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------------[/go]

Is that marked stone important? How much does it cost you if you lose it? How much do you gain in the corner?

Finally, I plaed two more game yesterday and they both went fine... but in the first one, what an early resignation from black... I think it was even ahead...

Definitely a weird place to resign. Maybe a sandbagger? I don't know.

skydyr wrote:

oca wrote: I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome

Experience? Not really sure. Maybe looking at stronger players' games.

Yes why not looking at a pro game... that's something new for me...
So first let choose a game... I will pick one from that post : http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10643

here we go, let's try Cho Chikun game n°143 (that's the first one that is marked with a star, and isn't a split game as game 128 is... )

So first thing, just place the moves and get a general feel of the game...


Next steps :
- identify the different phases of the game
- try to do a review of that game from my 14 kyu perspective...
- try to spot tenuki and position where "I" would have tenuki "too early" my self but where the pros didn't tenuki)

Next steps :
- identify the different phases of the game
...

Identifying the phases is allready quite a chalenge for me...

So Fuseky starts at move ... 1
but where did the Fuseky ends ? 8 to 34 looks allready complicated to me...
but I would say fuseky ends at 40, just before the 3-3 invasion on the top/left corner

Mid-game : from 41 to the end... no yose to me in this game as the center white group died... and white resigned.

...
- try to do a review of that game from my 14 kyu perspective...
- try to spot tenuki and position where "I" would have tenuki "too early" my self but where the pros didn't tenuki)

I will keep the review for the ends and starts with identifying the tenukis
the first tenuki is... ? ok... maybe I will skip the first 4 corner moves...
so ... well not really a tenuki... that's a san-ren-sei
6 to 27 is a sequence of related moves...

is the first tenuki ?, I would say no... it's still related to the previous moves and helps the H3 H4 stones...

? still not a tenuki to me...

so I got a winner is the first tenuki to me...

For me the fuseki ends at move where Black makes a clear choice of continuing to harass the White group. With White keeps the pressure on the Black group to help his own weak group so we're definitely in middle game patterns now.

can be seen as a local tenuki but it's not a global one.
is clearly tenuki but it's a natural one, as the local fight from bottom to centre has come to a pause with White being 100% alive.