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Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:19 pm
by MikeKyle
8(h)-11

Comment
There is a lot of uncertainty for me but I think this game is currently close (maybe I will look a fool for saying that?)
I'm pretty proud at getting to this stage with a game that I'm not clearly loosing to be honest.
It seems reasonable to count 50 for black at the top. Black has 5 extra captures and maybe 10 points or so with the two other groups. I have komi, 29 points on the right (sticking with that) and almost certainly the same on the left I'd say. A lot of boundaries are actually already settled but I would favour black in this game on the basis that the stronger player usually has a pleasant time in the endgame.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:54 am
by Tryss
Diagram

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:54 am
by MikeKyle
Thanks to those posting diagrams. Should make it easier when we look back over the game. There is also great comedy value in the red warning text
Diagram
:lol:

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:01 am
by MikeKyle
Malkovich stuff
Since we're not so far from the end, I figured I might attempt a blind review. When we are all done I'll take a look at an actual sgf/diagram/board and/or review with AI, but I think it will be beneficial to try to analyse myself with hindsight first. I may well get move order, coordinates or even moves wrong. I'll need to split it into parts.

Part 1
B 16-16
W 4-4
B 16-4
W 4-16
B 6-3
W 3-6
Straightforward modern fast go game so far.
B 7-6
Interesting move. I'm sure AI will hate it because we played above the 4th line without a fight going on but AI misses the value of moves like this in amateur games. One of the drawbacks that AI would be particularly sensitive to is that black has spent two moves and has no base. I extracted a tiny bit of value from this (and may yet get a little more) but I would expect AI sequences would exploit this better.
W 14-3
Seems reasonable. Want to play in this space and I'm probably better not poking at the jump just yet.
B 12-3
Reasonable enough. A wider pincer still leaves space and problems with the left so why not get the right hand side a bit thicker.
W 17-3
Other options feel like they might help black fix up. AI will probably think this move is fine (maybe not top choice?) but it's more difficult for humans to handle the moyo it encourages.
B 16-3
W 17-4
B 16-5
W 16-2
B 15-2
W 17-2
All Joseki. Wasn't sensible for black to block the other side so there was almost no choice.
B 15-3
Again, bots will dislike this but for amateurs surely it's fine. The drawback seems to be that it leaves black a little bit heavy. Although I certainly didn't exploit this correctly, playing this way did make my results on this bottom side possible and I was pleased with how this went.
W 17-6
B 15-7
This move looks a little bit strange when black plays the 16-6 exchange which I guess is why I forgot it was there! This is probably the right move though.
W 10-4
I think I should have done something more technical here. Maybe directly poked at the thin jump on the left and/or attached to the pincer stone directly
B 10-6
Surely good. Tough for me now. On AI analysis I'm sure there are some wild swings here as we will both make mistakes in this sequence.
W 14-2
B 14-1
W 13-1
B 15-1
W 14-5
B 16-6
W 17-7
I'm happy to fix problems on the right but I overlooked how comfortable this makes black in the centre. Very curious what AI will suggest around here.
B 12-5
In hindsight perhaps a little thin again, but it looks good so it doesn't feel like I can say it's a bad move.
W 9-6
Slightly desperate thrashing around. Almost certainly bad.
B 9-7
W 11-3
B 13-2
Perhaps 12-2 would give a couple more forcing moves but possibly leave less effective aji? Idk
W 11-6
B 11-5
There were moves that I was really concerned about here but I can't seem to read it now. Maybe just 10-7 leaves me with no real forcing moves and lots of problems?
W 10-5
B 10-7
W 12-4
B 13-4
W 12-2
B 13-3
At the time I think I thought this was the mistake but now I'm really unsure. Perhaps capturing at 11-4 for ko is reasonable, but my local threats seem okay and when I win the ko black may be in danger. Tough choice.
W 13-5
B 14-4
W 12-6
I was probably too happy about this capture. I'm still not alive here in the endgame.
B 8-4
Maybe black could have captured with 9-5 to make this group thicker towards the centre?
W 8-5
B 7-5
W 12-8
At the time I think I was thinking about this move as a nice honte settling luxury move and definitely thinking about tenuki for the top side. Now this seems pretty huge for the relative strength of groups. I'm glad I played it

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 am
by MikeKyle
Continued Malkovich stuff
Review part 2
B 6-17
W 3-14
I considered playing 4-14 instead which just seems weird to me now. I think I was more afraid of the centre black stones than I am now. Low seems fine. I don't think a shoulder hit works well at all for the immediate future as black isn't quite alive anywhere.
B 4-2
W 3-3
Again, I briefly considered other moves here (once I correctly read what blacks move was) but in hindsight this seems important for the relative strength of groups.
B 4-17
W 3-17
B 3-18
W 5-17
I didn't give this much thought but maybe this is the right ocasion to play 2-17 or another of these modern things that is more likely to take the full corner back? I think my move is basically fine but it does work towards the left hand side which is difficult to develop due to black's centre stones
B 4-18
W 5-16
The alternative 5-18 looks interesting to me now. Maybe it would just invite complications that I didn't need.
B 5-18
W 2-17
B 6-16
W 7-18
I'm not so sure about the timing of this peep now. when black has a hoshi stone in the oposite corner this pattern makes a nice formation across the top. It's probably playable for white but I might prefer to just approach at 14-17 in hindsight.
B 8-17
W 8-18
Maybe here is another reasonable place to tenuki and do something in the top left.
b 3-16
w 2-16
b 10-17
w 7-17
b 4-15
w 5-15
b 8-16
w 6-18
b 9-18
w 2-18
b 7-16
I can't see any good branches from this sequence. Seems like a one way road.
w 17-17
Not sure if it's inconsistent to tenuki now - maybe I should have tenukid earlier if I didn't want to save the cutting stones right away. This move seems reasonable though. I might also have considered 17-14.
b 16-17
w 17-16
b 17-14
w 17-15
b 16-15
w 18-14
b 18-13
At the time I thought this black move was unusual but now I think it's just my lack of recent playing experience. I think b17-13 would have been fine.
w 17-13
This is still the best looking move I can see. I don't think atari the other way and hane connect does much for me. This feels like a weird little blind spot and I'll be interested to investigate when we're done.
b 16-14
w 18-12
b 17-18
If black had played 16-13 here I think I would have had to play 17-12. Surely then it's a big mistake not to make this exchange?
w 19-13
(the move that my oponent thought was 3-19 i believe. I can absolutely understand mistakes in reading the coordinate system)
b 18-17
w 18-16
b 19-16
w 18-15
How to judge this result!? I think it's fairly good for white. White has okay prospects on the right and is fairly thick. localy white should get the corner as that ko is so risky (although globaly black is so confident in the ko)
Black is kind of thick too. If he plays around 15-12 then the moyo looks really good.
b 12-11
This is exciting but I really feel like the more straightforward 15-12 does a better job? This takes less teritory at the top but I guess is slightly better for left centre development? I wonder if black is trying to build an attack on the bottom side white group? If so this feels like a very minor threat to me.
w 15-12
I guess if I was more worried I could have gone a bit deeper but this seems fine.
b 13-13
w 14-13
Urgh. start of my terrible aji keshi stuff
b 13-14
w 13-12
b 12-12
w 14-14
Argh!! this is stupidly early. This should be my sente at almost any time and black is a long way away from considering playing anything reverse sente here. I think I just played it so soon because I didn't seem like there was really any aji (I really didn't think black could play the ko) and the game feels more comfortable if things are settled. There's a chance that theres a big AI % drop at this move but it probably depends if AI thinks black can fight the ko or not. There's also a chance that AI unrealistically thinks I'm far ahead here because the AI has less respect for moyo.
b 14-15
w 10-8
I thought this was really slow around the time but it seems okay to me now. Not great but reasonable enough.
B 15-10
I guess maybe this is a response to my move in the sense that it stops moves around 10-2 being sente? At the time I wished I'd played on the right but it feels slightly slow now?
W 5-3
Rubbish! My most stupid feeling move. With b 15-7 on the board it just doesn't work but even if it wasn't there I'm not sure it's a very good idea.
B 5-2
Black is very happy to do this. I think I'm correct in believing that black would have to play 6-2 without b15-7 on the board?
W 6-4
B 7-4
W 7-3
B 6-2
W 8-2
B 9-3
W 10-2
Not sente against right group :/
B 9-2
W 15-5
Thought b15-7 wasn't there => thought black couldn't link up and this was the killing move. At this move I guess I could have played something around 15-8. I'm not 100% how this would go but maybe I could force black to have to go back and play 15-5 to live and take a nice right hand side? Not much different to the result I got though maybe.
B 14-9
Seems to leave aji at 13-10. Not sure. Maybe it's safe?
W 16-7
B 15-6
W 8-7
Here's where I tried to play on top of my opponent's stone at 15-7! When I discovered that there was a black stone here I trusted that black was connected up fine and played away. Now I'm wondering if 13-10 works. I can't see a refutation. With b14-11 w13-11 b14-12 w13-9.. black can capture 2 stones but then white can still cut?
Will continue reviewing in a later post.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:09 pm
by TelegraphGo
Sorry for the wait! I’m finally not busy again.

7-13
G-13
Extend.

It’s been a while. I haven’t actually reread through the moves, only his last one to make sure we are where I thought we were. I’ve been occasionally glancing at this position in my head, trying to find a trap to set. In all those mental glances, these stones were one line down. So I guess I’m even more compressed than I thought. :sad:

In related news, I can’t find any traps to set. I’m just going to keep on chugging, and hope he messes up endgame. He should be able to get something good on the bottom left, but if he continues to play over passive then I have a chance.

I have a feeling that he’s not too bad at endgame, though, since I think he is way too territorial and the most likely way that that could have been reinforced is if he wins low territory endgame style games a lot. So prospects are bleak, but maybe he’s gonna allow me some aji that I’m not supposed to have.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:54 pm
by MikeKyle
5-10
E-10

I have a busy time ahead. I can probably give this 10 days or so for now but will then probably need to pause it until late April. I think we may have a shot at finishing in that time though?

I haven't reviewed the moves again yet but I may need to.

Comment
I remember this thought process from before the pause. I'm confident black will need to answer for his bottom side group however I'm not confident he can't protect it in sente using the weakness of my centre stones. If he defends the group in gote then I probably complete the left hand side with another move but it's tough to pick one I can't see a nice shape move for me at the moment.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:52 pm
by TelegraphGo
4-13
D13

I’ll do my best to hurry it along. Since it’s so close and there’s only a little endgame, you don’t mind trying to bring this game to a real conclusion, do you?
Two space jump.
Shoulder hit.

I really didn’t expect this move from him. I think he can’t disconnect this reducing move, and when you reduce past your opponent’s last move it makes that surrounding move very inefficient. If it has impact elsewhere on the board it could still be doing its job - maybe he thought he needed this stone for something to do with my 3-8 stones. We’ll see if he engages in one last fight.

I searched again for some way to play a special move and make good exchanges but it’s really hard to evaluate good exchanges when you can’t see them :lol:

I don’t think there’s anything here, but I could be wrong. I haven’t read back over the moves but I think my worst mistake (after the obvious early one to put myself in a handicap game) was my atari in the middle, which was probably a few points smaller than some move on the right side. I’m curious to see how my opinions change when I can see - I’ll probably make two reviews, one with sight and then one with an AI. Beyond being blindfolded, this is my first correspondence game since I was 10 kyu, so I’m curious to see whether the kind of mistakes I made are typical or different from my normal mistakes.

But I’m not totally giving up just yet! If he continues with some inaccuracy I’ll be barely behind as we start the more mathematical endgame. I used to win almost every game that went to counting when I was his level (though admittedly I didn’t play that many games that went to counting :D )

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:24 am
by MikeKyle
5-8
E-8

Let's see how it goes. I think most areas are down to late endgame, just centre to figure out.

Comment
I guess black has read that he's able to rescue this group with moves against my centre group? I'm not sure if he has to give me a few stones though?

I feel like I'm playing way beneath my strength right now. Have not played other than this game since mid December. Mostly no go content in that time either in order to focus on my exam in April.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:18 pm
by TelegraphGo
4-14
D14

Sorry, taking some time to go through the moves again.
Connect.
Threat to kill.

I’m going back through the game and mentally marking down the endgame continuations as I do. It’s maybe a little unpure, since I wasn’t taking such rigorous notice the first time through, but I’m no longer visualizing using an empty board, since there’s not as much need to read out the collisions of different local shapes anymore. It’s still really quite hard to keep a mental tally, I was handling it much better when remembering just shapes. Anyway I haven’t gotten back to the last ko threat part where my eyeshape on the bottom was defined yet, so I could be dying on the bottom by playing this. I don’t think I remember being that weak, and I feel like I ought to play reasonably quickly to be polite to him anyway, so here goes!

I’m pretty sure this is the correct way to play locally. He’s going to have to take and then when I turn it’s still sente against his group, I believe. Actually, if he plays hane in response, I can hane too and he still has to respond. So I’m pretty sure he wasn’t supposed to play away just yet. The squeeze on his outside four stones gives me nice profit while I put him on 6 points in the corner - I don’t think I could dream of a better result.

Actually, if my shape on the bottom is strong and I can counter his attack on my three stones, the game should be just about even. I guess that means I have to be more critical of any endgame mistakes I make when I review :lol:

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:46 am
by MikeKyle
3-15
C-15

Comment
Required to save the corner.
Very typically of me (and perhaps kyu players) I was focused on the interesting ideas I had and not on the interesting ideas my opponent had. I didn't actually read what that invasion move did.

However I think black still needs to play on the bottom side to live? In my head 6-5 would kill (5-7 might be cleaner?) but I could be overlooking something obvious or something tricky around 7-10ish.

Feeling fairly impaired by lack of go at this point.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:15 am
by TelegraphGo
3-13
C13
Turn.
Threat to kill.

I’m rather embarrassed, I only noticed later last night that my previous exchange allowed him to cut by push 5-14 and wedge at 6-13. I’d thought I had one more line of free space and could ladder it, but that’s running into his 3-10 stone. So, uh, it’s gonna be fun to try to save all my stones once my sente is done. There seems to be a lot of aji, so I think I shouldn’t have to give up too much. Still haven’t seen my bottom side shape though, so this could be dicey.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:34 pm
by MikeKyle
2-13
B13

Comment
Still paying for not paying enough attention to Black's good move.
I'm still unclear how black will handle both these stones and the bottom side group.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:08 pm
by TelegraphGo
2-12
B12
Hane.
Threat to kill.

I’m still trying to figure out what to do on my next move. If I sacrifice my 3-8 stones with a move like 3-11 this still was okay, though not game winning. Hopefully I can find a nicer way, though. The aji up here can’t be useful for more than this hane, so I’m playing it now. Maybe if he plays something crazy I won’t have to worry as much.

Re: MikeKyle v. TelegraphGo (Blind)

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:01 am
by MikeKyle
2-14
B14

Comment
Pain pain pain!
It seems unlikely that my counter attack on these stones (if black has to return to the bottom side group) won't be enough for this reduction. Either that or black can play so confidently as he has a strategy to save the bottom side group and doesn't need to come back?