??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:43 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:50 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . W . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:01 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X B . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:04 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . 3 . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:13 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . W . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger accepted, but I will have to think about this one for a while.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:56 pm

lower right is bigger than upper right.. maybe i made a mistake but...it also has to do with aji in the middle so i dont know what is the better answer here...but now i am thinking i should have played lower right...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . 2 . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X 1 . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:17 pm

if i was black i would play as below. it is bigger than my upper left corner. not only that but also he didnt play upper left corner correctly.
monkey jump was really bad choice in my opinion. and right lower corner should have hanne. because of his wrong endgame i have a good chance of winning this game. my invasion if successful will force him to resign.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Heartless · Post by **Heartless** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:19 pm

Magicwand wrote:
if i was black i would play as below. it is bigger than my upper left corner. not only that but also he didnt play upper left corner correctly.
monkey jump was really bad choice in my opinion. and right lower corner should have hanne. because of his wrong endgame i have a good chance of winning this game. my invasion if successful will force him to resign.
$$Bc W=2 B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:33 pm

Heartless wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
if i was black i would play as below. it is bigger than my upper left corner. not only that but also he didnt play upper left corner correctly.
monkey jump was really bad choice in my opinion. and right lower corner should have hanne. because of his wrong endgame i have a good chance of winning this game. my invasion if successful will force him to resign.
$$Bc W=2 B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I completely agree. The difference between black and white playing there first is approximately 16 points

ethanb · Post by **ethanb** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:04 am

Numsgil wrote:
Heartless wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
if i was black i would play as below. it is bigger than my upper left corner. not only that but also he didnt play upper left corner correctly.
monkey jump was really bad choice in my opinion. and right lower corner should have hanne. because of his wrong endgame i have a good chance of winning this game. my invasion if successful will force him to resign.
$$Bc W=2 B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I completely agree. The difference between black and white playing there first is approximately 16 points

?

I'm not good at end game counting (a few different possible variations to consider depending on who gets sente/reverse sente/gote and I'm never sure how to count them), but I don't see more than maybe 8 points (~4 points for whoever gets there first)?

What are the positions you're comparing?

Endgame counting is hard if you really want to find the true value of a move. You have to take follow-ups into account.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x x x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y y . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y y y . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Original position with estimated territory boundaries.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x x x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X d d | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y . . O B d d | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's move considered in isolation is worth approximately 4 points (marked d for delta).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y d 1 O B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y d d . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's response is gote (even though it has a sente follow-up), so the value we assign to it should be halved; 3/2 = 2.5. Total: 6.5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x x x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X x x | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y y 1 O B 6 x | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y y y 5 3 4 x | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is white's privilege and can be considered part of the above diagram (as a shortcut - for the "real deal" I suppose you'd want to consider black's hane/connect in reverse sente and black tenuki at 6 as well - at 1/4 and 1/8 the additional delta points respectively, since they're follow-up to a follow-up [to a follow-up].)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x x x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X x x | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y d 3 2 W B x x | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y d . . 4 d d d | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's attachment at 2 (if 1 is a white tenuki) captures the marked stone as well as making the changes marked delta. Gote follow-up is worth half (since it's 50% chance of getting it): 7 points / 2 = 3.5: total 10.

Now we look at white playing first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x x x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y y . O W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y y y d . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

1 point delta - since this is variation from the initial position, it's added at full value: 11 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x x x | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X x B x | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . 4 X . d | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y y d O W 1 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y y y y . 2 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black 5 is at the marked stone, which is a lost point from the original position. White and Black's 1 point of gains otherwise cancel out, so +0.5: 11.5

If black tenuki instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . x d d | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X B B d | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . 4 X 2 . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O y y y d O W d 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . y y y y y d d d | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is gote follow-up for white, so half-value, but the delta is huge. 10 point delta / 2 = 5 points. Total 16.5

If you want you can go farther, but as each time you add follow-ups you get into fractions of fractions of points, there is a point of diminishing returns.

Ordinarily, if you hit a point where the follow up is worth more than the previous move you should consider the previous move absolute sente. The only time you could consider otherwise is a ko fight, and ko threat value estimates can generally be done without counting to this much precision.

But yeah, total value I get for this endgame play (black vs. white to move from the original position) is 16.5 - so 16 is a proper estimate.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:17 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . B . O . . . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . X . O . W . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . B . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . X . O . O . O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:08 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . . . X . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . X . O . O W O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:52 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . B . X . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . X . O . O O O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, well, this connects all my stones. Note that it's very important to answer :w2:

on this side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W=2 B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . O . X . X X . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O . . . O . . . . 1 2 X . . . O . | $$ | . . X X O X . . O . X . 3 . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . . X . O . O O O X . | $$ | . . O . O X . X O . . X . . . . . X . | $$ | . O X X . X . X O O O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X O O X X X X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . X O O O . X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . X . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O O O X O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . O . X X X O . . O . . X X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We'll see what he's got up his sleeve, but I think I won this one.

Life In 19x19

??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)

Re: ??. Magicwand (3d) vs. daniel_the_smith (1k)