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#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=9917

Page 14 of 21

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:36 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Anything else allows him to overrun my position in the center.
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:44 pm
by drmwc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
As planned. The cut was too hairy. I probably need to shore up my big central thing - this is quite big and very nearly sente.


Next:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O 7 X 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 4 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 3 a . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . b X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
3-4 is nearly sente and quite big. (4 at provoke white b.) I think I am strong enought in the center to then probe at 5. The 6-8 replies are quite passive,so may not happen. (It would be nice if they do occur).

Next I may do my fany probe:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . O . X 1 O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X X . O 2 . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . 6 . . 3 X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Capturing the stone does a lot to shore up my position, and puts pressure on the top right black group.Descent at 12 above may be an overplay - hane at 13 nearly kills.

So black may need to defend at the top right with 12.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 O . . . a . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O 6 . O . X 1 O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X X . O 2 . X O . O X X . X 0 X . |
$$ | . . . . 3 X O . X X O . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . b . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
I now get the big endgame moves on the right. I have large moves coming up at a and b.
Black's centre-top group is not 100% alive, which increases the size of the move at a.

I am behind, but if this diagram happens, I am pretty close to catching up. If I can wangel getting both a and b, I am probabaly around 10 points behind. For this stage of a 4 stone game, that is an acceptable outcome.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:25 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Removing the possibility of an eye later on, just to make him worry about his group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 . . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:34 am
by drmwc
Trigger accepted.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
As planned.

I'm pretty sure black's forcing move was a mistake. It removes this cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . 4 3 O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X 5 . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
As a result, my central group-string is becoming pretty strong. This in turn means that black's central group is weaker. For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 4 3 O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X 6 X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X . . . . . 5 X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Black seems to lack two eyes. It's unlikely to die, since it has access to the centre, but aji like this is very nice to have. It is likely to give me some profit somewhere.

Edited to add:
The lower left yose may also become entertaining for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . 6 0 . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . 8 O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 9 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X 1 X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . X X 2 3 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
If something like this happens, black collapses. SO black needs to answer the move at 3 in the first diagram differently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
This works for black. But I may be able to come up with something entertaining by changing the move order.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:33 am
by Uberdude
@drmwc
Did you consider any ways black might resist meekly answering your move?
@obs
I would be looking at things like this as black, as it stops a-f working. But maybe white can clamp immediately or something, it's tricky...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm92
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 3 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . a c e f O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | b X d X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
This kind of endgame hassling is the fun that comes from splitting groups, not playing the topological game as drmwc calls it.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:20 am
by Bill Spight
Uberdude wrote: @obs
This kind of endgame hassling is the fun that comes from splitting groups, not playing the topological game as drmwc calls it.
I thought that splitting groups was topological. :)

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:35 am
by drmwc
I needed to change to 10 posts per page to read the previous page.

Ubderdude:
I fully expect resistance. However, a lot of moves are conceivable and giving diagrams for them all was impracticable. Furthermore, it's not completely clear my move is 100% sente. Specifically, any of the moves marked at a maybe possible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm84
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O a . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . a O . . . O . . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . a . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | a X a X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . 3 . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 6 . . . O a a . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
The position is complex, and certainly beyond my reading abilities! I think I avoid collapse in the lines I've looked at, but I may have overlooked something somewhere.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:37 am
by Joaz Banbeck
My initial reaction is to set up the miai cuts.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O C . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O C X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

So far, I can't see any reason why I can't do this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
But it is complicated. I must read more.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:24 am
by Joaz Banbeck
It comes down to a simple choice: get busy living or get busy dying.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
One of the more amusing lines that I have found, even if he does maintain a connection on the F file:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 )
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X 2 O 5 X 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . 1 X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 7 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I get two eyes
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . O X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . C X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 9 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O 6 7 C . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . 5 O 1 3 . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . 8 2 4 O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------[/go]
And his upper middle group is on the verge of getting trapped.
Sure, there are lots of unexplored branches in these last 2 diagrams, so I can't claim that it works. But it is one more way to solve the living in the middle issue.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:44 am
by tj86430
Joaz, you may want to proofread and correct the hidden part of your post (second diagram doesn't display correctly, because ']' is missing from the end of '[/go]'-tag)

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:56 am
by Uberdude
I very much doubt white will make the h16 j17 exchange as it damages the top, but just connect. If black then cuts at a then b should be sente and fixes the c weakness for now, or maybe just d atari. Then white could run out his middle group (which also pressures black's middle) or try to kill the left somehow.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc ( Although I could tenuki with 6 )
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b O . . O d X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O a . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 1 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:45 am
by drmwc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Joaz's move is pretty good.

However, the continuation is unclear - I don't think white can cut. I atari, which bodges my shape, and ask questions of the centre group:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O 4 X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O 3 5 X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . 7 6 O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X 9 X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . 0 . 8 X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . a . 6 O O X X X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . 3 O 1 O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O 4 5 . a X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Next the two moves marked a are miai. Black may have issues if this happens. His best bet may be trying for a big trade e.g.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O 4 O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O O O X X X O . 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O O X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 1 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
My group is in trouble, but so is black's. So this line requires careful counting. SO maybe I should do this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O X X X O . 2 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 3 X . . X . X O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O O X . 4 X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X 5 X . 1 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . O . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
This line seems reasonable for me - black is in more trouble than white. Finally, if black doesn't cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X 7 X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 5 X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
It's not clear to me where is best for me here. If I play 4 above, black still can't cut since it transposes. Black's next move is unclear - protecting on the right may be prudent. Then I can pretend to be alive everywhere and start the endgame. I could also contemplate all out war against the centre group.

If black doesn't play 5, he needs to worry about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . X . 1 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 6 9 . . O 2 X . X O . 4 . . O . . . |
$$ | 7 X . X . . . 5 . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . 3 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
If a move at a is black's sente, he can bodge against this aji by playing there first.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:07 am
by Uberdude
Seems drmwc isn't looking as hard for good black moves as he is for good white moves. Isn't this a connection:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 O . . . 7 . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O 3 . O O X . O 9 X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X X X O a O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X O O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . O 1 O X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
Of course these threats are still nice as white can try to prevent that connection beforehand in sente, or if black ignores say m18 to live in the centre white gets compensation on the side.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:16 am
by Joaz Banbeck
It is Xmas time: business is real busy and will be until the 24th. I will be back in a week or two.

Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:30 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . X O . O X X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O . . . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . O . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]
The position is complicated, and I don't claim to have analyzed all of the lines, but after playing with it a bit, I have come to the conclusion that a play in the upper left is double sente.
Altough I have two iffy groups, ( one in the upper left, one center ) I don't have to make a choice between them. This protects both of them.
It protects the upper left directly by getting more room, and the center can live because of the aji of the cut at G16.

So I am going to play this before he plays B17. Then I am going to take the previously announced break to read in depth.
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