Life In 19x19

Ember wrote: What was strange this week (when I leave that Bundesliga game out) was that I had 2 losses on OGS in which I had a really really hard time agains people of similar strength (I'm 6k there) , while the games I played on KGS against people of around my rank (I'm 4k there) were a lot easier for me. It might have been a coincidence or maybe these two cannot be compared because the games on OGS where ranked while the ones on KGS were free and the people care less about them, but I still think this is a bit weird. Oh, and I played a few games in the last week on both servers so the ranks should be about right.

Historically, I think given ranks on DGS and OGS have been much stronger than the same rank on another server due to the game lag. To take an extreme example, a 30 kyu could easily improve by 10 stones or more over the month it takes to complete their first correspondance game. So if you are a 15 kyu who started out playing a 30 kyu but ended playing a player who is 20k by strength and lose, it exhibits a downward pull on the ranking system leading to a given rank being much stronger than in other systems. I think as you go up in rank, this may lessen.

Anyways, when OGS and Nova merged, two different ranking systems with different strengths merged, and if someone who is 4k in live games plays an OGS 4k player, they are probably actually several stones weaker than the assumed handicap. When the OGS userbase was so much bigger than the Nova one, and the server is still primarily used for live games, you end up with ranks that are similar in strength to OGS previously.

Misclicking, server rank differences, and not enjoying online play as much as face-to-face. I think we've all been in these places before.

I still remember my first misclick on the KGS. It had absolutely no bearing on the game (it was a 6-7 point mistake and I was ahead by about 40) but my opponent wouldn't let me take it back. It still bugs me - which it probably shouldn't. Don't make this mistake - don't let a misclick haunt you. Just let it go and forget about it. These things happen.

As for rank differences, yeah, ranks can be quite different. My IGS rank is 8k now. It dropped from 7k? to 8k? recently. I started that account when I was 7k on the KGS, so I figured it would be similar. I played and lost a couple of games then came back to it after reaching 4k on the KGS. Since then I've gone 2 and 2. One win was a hard fought win, the other was insanely easy. One loss was a close game, the other was a blowout. Honestly, rank comparisions are often imprecise. There are a lot of factors going into ones rank and I've found that different servers tend to have different playstyles which can impact things. People say that Tygem is a very aggressive server fraught with overplays. I can tell you from experience that FlyOrDie players are quite aggressive. Approach a corner and they either pincer or kick (and sometimes do the kick followed by a pincer). KGS and IGS seem a bit more balanced, however I've found IGS players tend to be more territorial and calm while KGS players tend to be more influence oriented and slightly aggressive in comparison. That is not to say that every game on a server will feature the stereotypical player - they are just stereotypes - but if you are playing against an unfamiliar style then you are bound to get confused and/or make mistakes against it.

Finally, yeah, face-to-face play is just more fun, but I'm glad you are able to enjoy online games as well. Perhaps with the exception of some parts of Asia, you can play a lot more go online than you ever could in person. Still, I love how casual a game can be when you are seated across from a familiar player. And the emotion can change from upbeat to serious and back again as the flow of the game changes. It is great to share that experience in person. Even my tournament experience was pretty laid back and fun. You can still play a casual game online that has changes in emotion, but the experience is fuller and more real when you are playing go in person. Sadly, I still haven't been able to like the correspondence format. Perhaps I should give OGS more of a try, but between my OGS game and two Malkovich games here I don't think its for me.

Hopefully you won't feel so busy next week and congratulations on your Madrid trip!

What's OGA Ember if i may ask?

@ skydyr + moyoaji: Of course, the ranks are usually different on different servers (at least until one reaches the dan ranks, I guess). What I was really wondering about was that I have a pretty stable rank on both servers (on KGS it doesn't look like it but I've been 4k there for a bit longer than since the start of this account) but still one set of games suddenly was really tough to play for me while the other games at the same time (within only a few days time) were very easy. Two weeks ago this was not the case. But it might be true that the reason for this might be the different server styles as moyoaji pointed out and that somehow I got along better with one than with the other. Or it was just a coincidence, who knows. From next week on I'll have a little more time to investigate here and I'll be sure to let you know.

@ misclicking: moyoaji, that sounds really bad! I hope you'll get over it soon because, as you said, I wasn't a loosing move for you and it really shouldn't bother you any more (even if it would have been the losing move)! Some people have a "strange" attitude (strange is always considered from one's own perspective), but no matter how much you think about it you won't be able to change that situation or the person's attitude. For me, if it is an obvious mistake and it doesn't happen 10 times per game but only once in one game I think it is perfectly fine to let the opponent take back that mistake and place the stone on the proper place. Still, das I said, different people think about that differently. If the difference of points didn't matter, then I guess it would be better to start thinking about more important things, like your own goals. You'll get more out of that.
Still, I have a little history to tell about taking back moves here, too: I once knew a player who lost every game we played. He had pretty much only started when we first met and refused to take handicap from me most of the time. I was already a SDK, but as time passed he came nearer. When he was about two or three stones weaker than me (or about that, it's been a few years) we played a warm-up game before a tournament. I offered him to take back at least three big mistakes he made (and which he had realised he had made after he had played them) and in the end he won by a comfortable margin. He was proud as one can be! For me it didn't matter because I knew I could beat him and that he only won because I let him take back the moves. I actually found it a bit childish, too, but it didn't bug me a bit because I treated this game more like a teaching game (ok, with such a short gab in strength that might sound arrogant.. but it is how I felt it was).
As for my mistake from last week it doesn't annoy me that much anymore. Still, I learned my lesson and will pay more attention in the future so that it will be the only missclick (at least in the league games ).

@ correspondence games: They can be a bit annoying, too, sometimes. I already had several games that were more or less clearly won but then my opponent went on vacation so the game, although over, wouldn't be finished until maybe two or three weeks later. I admit this and the sometimes really, really, REALLY slow players are a bit unnerving sometimes. However, I think that it helps to have at least about 9 or 10 games open, so that you'll always have some opponents who play a quicker game, too. That helps to stick with it, at least it works for me.
I'd also definitely give OGS another try! At the moment it doesn't work perfectly but I guess that the developers are working on the open issues. Whenever you feel like coming over for a game, be sure to send me a challenge, ok? My nick over there is Fuenkchen.

@ 1/7,000,000,000: OGA is the short form of Online Go Anxiety. It often comes (as in my case) in a bundle with fear of loosing / rank obsession (which might be the cause for most people who suffer from it) or other things. Anyways, the impacts are not that nice, an uncomfortable feeling when logging onto a server and playing less games than you could play are the best you can "hope" for. There might even be physical impacts like a nervous stomach. If you want to read more about it, there's a page on Sensei's Library about it.

OGA...hm...can i join the club?

1/7,000,000,000 wrote:OGA...hm...can i join the club?

Which club would you like to join, the club of victims of OGA or the therapy group for victims of OGA? Anyways, I hope you can check out again soon and join the people who can simply enjoy playing. I assure you, it's much more fun! Although I know from experience that wanting to overcome and actually doing so is quite hard. What helps is finding the source for OGA and try to deal with it. That is, thinking about your fear, looking at it from some distance with a rational mind and re-evaluating it again. Again, that is easier said than done. But it is a process anyone has to face who wants to overcome it. For me the desire to get better at this game got much stronger than the fears I had and I somehow stopped thinking about it altogether until I noticed that it is (nearly) gone (most of the times). What could be your reason? I wish you all the best in your struggle, good luck on your way!

Well, actually it's not that bad anymore but there was a period some time ago in which i was very tentative of playing. I would watch other games for hours, maybe study a bit, but whenever someone invited me to a game i would politely refuse. As in your case my desire to become better has eliminated that habit.

Ember wrote:The good news is that, most unexpectedly, I recently started to enjoy playing online. A few months back, I was still suffering from OGA (which I had for years) and had to virtually force myself to get a game started on a server. Now I look forward to every (half an) hour I can play games on OGS or KGS (whenever I can't get a game on OGS).

This sounds great indeed. Since I've been severely suffering from OGA, I wonder what happened that suddenly you've got over it. It seems you even didn't have to take a bitter pill to overcome this. As you have suggested to find the source of the OGA, I suppose it is (at least in my case) the dissatisfaction with my own poor play (the bitter pill would probably be thousands of tsumego, but.... been there done that).

@ karaklis: What got me over that hesitation? Hm.. I think there are a few factors involved in this.

Maybe the strongest factor is that recently the desire to finally get better (4 years at around 6k is way more than enough for me!) got so strong that I didn't even think about that I was afraid to play online and only noticed afterwards that something remarkable had happened, that is me looking out for online games regularly and actually having a desire to play (on the servers as well) as much as I can. Maybe this "not thinking about it too much" is also a key factor, because all those years I think I have been thinking too much about it when I logged on and half-heartedly pondered the idea of playing or not playing. The resolution to play was pushed aside by thinking too much what might happen to my rank if I lost, or by thinking about all those mistakes I had been making recently that might happen again (or that I might make even worse ones!). I'd say, "Just do it!", but of course I know from experience that this won't do.
Therefore, I would suggest that you think about why you play, what is important for you in Go, what is your goal and how you might achieve it, find out what you REALLY are afraid of (not fear of losing but WHY you are afraid of losing?) and think about if this is a real fear or something that you talked yourself into.
For me, e.g. playing online was quite scary because I really hated others watching me play or, even worse, maybe (notice that "maybe"!) even keeping track of my "progress". Actually, I still do not like others watch me play, but I can accept it now (I think playing Bundesliga helped). As for the keeping track of my "progress" thing, I came to the comclusion that it is humbug, that it is something I made up myself. Why would anyone do that? Ok, now with this journal there even might be a chance somebody would do such a thing, but how would that harm me? I doubt it would be harmful. I mean, we all make mistakes, some of them are horrible, some less disastrous, so why should I care if others see my mistakes and maybe laugh at them or make a few jokes when I can't hear them, how would that harm me? Answer: It would harm me in no way, I would never know! So, I asked myself why should I actually care about it at all about something that might be happening or might not be happening, why waste even one thought on it? This pondering about what MIGHT be happening spoiled much of the fun for me, I think. (actually, it still hinders me while playing sometimes when I'M too timid and play too solidly where I could get more out of it - but that's something many people are struggling with)

The second important factor for this development might also be the merge of OGS and Nova. I always had games rolling in the last few years on OGS, so the merge was absolutely brilliant in that I am able to play live games there now, too, while I wait for my opponent to move in those slow games (actually I'm playing slow blitz, but so what? ). I mean, to others it might sound strange, but using the same interface when playing also lowered the barrier for me I think. At home, I'm always logged onto OGS (have been for wuite some time), so quickly getting in a game (if I can find an opponent) seems a lot easier. I don't have to think (yes, that thinking too much, again) about IF I should log on and MAYBE play a game, I was already there. So, taking an innocent look at the open games never hurts.

There might be more important factors for this change, but I think these two are the most important for me: stop overthinking and being in an environment that is comfortable and that I have a positive connotation with. Of course, this will be different for everyone. Therefore, I suggest again that you start thinking about what spoils it for you. As you wrote you are annoyed by you "poor play". I also had (and still have) that notion that I can actually play better than I do right now. But if I could do that, then why won't it happen? I also thought about this and fought against these high expectations I had for myself. In the end I had to admit that at the time that I was playing better than now, it was a time in which I actually had played more (regularly) than at a point where I was really dissatisfied with my play. So, it was logical to start playing more.
Maybe one way to come back to playing online for you would be to.. well.. to "forgive" yourself for your all your inabilities and the mistakes you make. This is hard, but let's face it: Everyone makes them, even the pros (I haven't heard of anyone to master Kami no Itte yet). Although the graveness of the mistakes differs, of course. Maybe you could start to see those mistakes as opportunities to learn, so that you can overcome those mistakes (and finally start making more sophisticated ones ). But I cannot speak for yourself, you have to come to a conclusion yourself, find a way that is good for you. From experience I know that in the first few games you still feel kind of awkward, but it DOES GET BETTER if you keep it up for some time! And so will you if you'll muster the strength to overcome what hinders you. Because as long as you keep on working and keep on trying, in the long run, there is only one way: up.

I hope that this encourages you to gather the strength to face yourself, your fears and your worries and that you, too, are able to become stronger by doing so. I'm sure you can do it, too! It won't be easy or happen over night, but if you do want to overcome OGA, you will eventually overcome it. Good luck on your way and if I can help you please do not hesitate to come back!

Weekly Update #4

Just a quick update today as I don't have really much to report:

Last week was another busy one which included even some night shifts to make up for a deadline I couldn't meet. Still, I did a few tsumego (today) and I have continued reading in Attack and Defense. I didn't have the time to really study the material, but it seems that it still paid off a little. Yesterday I was playing a game on OGS and (with a quite a bit help from my opponent) I had a good game going when the server suddenly crashed at move 74.. I tried to come back as soon as possible, but the clock didn't stop and I lost a good game for with 17 minutes main thinking time left before the crash on time... I was quite upset as you can imagine. My opponent was really nice and we played another game, but I resigned within the first 100 moves because I was too upset to concentrate properly ( I had discovered another bug duringthe game, too, which didn't help at all). I reported the bug and really do hope that they'll sort this issue out as soon as possible. It really spoils the fun for me when I have to think about that it might happen again... Although, to be fair, this was the first server crash I experienced on OGS.

Anyways, here is that interrupted game. I'm aware that I messed up the lower right a bit so that I got into trouble in the upper right. But apart form that I'm quite satisfied with the game.



Today I tried to play another game on OGS but when I had no luck to get an opponent after 10 minutes I switched to KGS where I quickly had a game going. I think my opponent was a little greedy when he wanted to invade my upper left side/corner, but I was really lucky to be able to kill his group then. From that point on I had a good feeling about that game. Any comments are, as always, much appreciated!



Next week I'll have to work for another deadline, so I won't be able to play as much as I had hoped that I could.. But I want to play at least one game every day, so I'll have something to show you guys next week.

I wish you and your families a very Merry Christmas, have a good week!

Ember

Hey, I'm often lurking around looking for games to review.

I hope you don't mind the critique. Last comment is on move 163. It's heavier on sequences than I usually do.... the lower right life and death stuff is probably very wrong. Maybe someone can correct that.

Many thanks to you for the review, emerus! I don't mind good critic like yours at all, I'm always happy to hear from strong players what I can do better in the future. Although I have to admit that I'm happy you found a move or two that you liked, too.

It's interesting to see that some of my moves are too harsh, I'll have to pay attention here in the future so that stronger opponents won't take advantage of that. Although I must say that I have huge problems telling too much from too slow/passive. It's always been that way and it never got better. I'll have to find a way to deal with this (any ideas here?). In this context it is also funny that you suggested quite a few moves that I'm too afraid of to play, especially in the opening - like D5, I doubt very much that many of my opponents right now would play so peacefully and I'm always at a loss of what to play when the crusscut comes. That's why I usually avoid that move whenever the opportunity arises, although that might be the wrong approach.. ^^; I guess reading well plays an extremly important role here. I gotta work on that so I can stop to be afraid (or be less afraid ).

I think it's better to be too harsh than too passive. If you're too passive, you'll sometimes play a game where nothing happens and you learn nothing. But if you're too harsh, all of your games will be adventures.

If your moves are too harsh your opponent's going to be able to directly punish it once you get up the ranks enough, wheras passive you'll just get outplayed more indirectly. A lot easier to have the lessons hammered in on the first than the second I think.

PeterN

I guess you are right, Shaddy and PeterN. You have to cross the border at times to know what's still ok and what doesn't work - so you can punish your opponent if he plays like that, too.

I already put your advice into action (although I didn't want it to be as fierce as it turned out in the end ). A few minutes ago I finished a quite unhole Christmas game of Go with lots of cut'n'kill. Thankfully, it was my opponent who got killed (although I did most of the cutting thingy). He sometimes (especially when it came to game-decisive moves) played very passively, which allowed me to take more than I should have gotten out of it. A neat example for what Shaddy and PeterN said above (although there are a lot of mistakes in my part in that game, too). Still, im kind of.. proud. It is one of those few games in the last weeks that I could really see all the tsumego sessions pay off. Immediately seeing the vital point for killing his center group alone was.. more than great. I'll enjoy that feeling until another game gets my feet back on earth again, maybe together with another serving of tsumego.

Although it is another won game, maybe one or two of you would like to see what I'm talking about at all (comments and critic is, as always, welcome):


Oh, and as a nice bonus and a Christmas present for myself I got my KGS 4k back after this game!

Merry Christmas to all of you, wherever you are!

Ember