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OCA's log http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10474	Page 11 of 20

Author:	S2W [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Here's what a quick pro game search showed

Author: Bill Spight [ Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:11 am ]

Post subject: Re: OCA's log

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 6 . 7 . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

wrong? It is hard to say. Or if it is wrong, it is unlikely to be far wrong. "a" reverts to joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 8 . 7 . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But let's look at the game continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 a . . 7 b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 . 2 . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

is good. Very good, IMO.

As Bruce Wilcox says, it breaks the sector line between the :bc:

and

. Furthermore, it pushes through a relatively small gap. The smaller the gap you push through, the stronger the play, as a rule. White now threatens both of those Black stones.

IMO, :b9:

is questionable. Better to secure the corner by a play at 10 or probably "a".

:w10:

is good. It makes a base for White and attacks on both sides.

:w12:

is not so good. It invites the hane at "b", which strengthens Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 . 2 . . 7 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Instead, the pincer at :w12:

here is good. Black would like to play here to make a base for :b7:

. It is the follow through of :w8:

, which threatened both sides.

Author:	oca [ Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Thank you Bill ! the "weird": was an idea that went into my head inspired by anthoer joseki that doesn't have that much in common to this one... and... the lack of other idea... but I like your pincer idea at K16.

Author:

oca [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:36 am ]

Post subject:

Re: OCA's log

oufff... 5 defeats in a row... :blackeye:

In each game, at least one invasion failed (invading group beeing killed).

So I think I should change something in my playing.... but I still don't know exactly what :scratch:

Maybe I'm trying to invade too late, or I'm doing it the wrong way...

Here is an example game, the worse invasion I tryied is at 79... maybe I should have attacked M12 first and build some helping group first... Any comments welcome.

Attachments:

ANMLQHTQCZ.sgf [5.94 KiB]
Downloaded 1149 times

Author:	skydyr [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
So, when black attaches in the bottom right, that makes this area urgent. You have the local advantage, being a move ahead, so you may want to hane on the outside. Whatever you do, DON'T tenuki for . The difference between one side or the other getting the hane at the head of two is huge. At there is a difference between leaving things open (not forcing your opponent to take thick positions) and playing tenuki when there are urgent moves to be played. At this point, white already has 2 moves he really needs to take: P3 and something to stabilize the right side. P16 also seems nice. is fine locally, but is wishy-washy. You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner. is small when the right side is still so urgent. : just seal off the right in sente and then take a big right-side point. Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated. Black is too strong here. This is not an invasion, but suicide. The time to do something here (if you wanted to) was before you gave black the wall extending down from the center-top.

Author: oca [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:00 am ]

Post subject: Re: OCA's log

Hi skydyr,

Thanks for your comments...

skydyr wrote:

So, when black attaches in the bottom right, that makes this area urgent. You have the local advantage, being a move ahead, so you may want to hane on the outside.
Whatever you do, DON'T tenuki for :w5:

. The difference between one side or the other getting the hane at the head of two is huge.
At :w9:

there is a difference between leaving things open (not forcing your opponent to take thick positions) and playing tenuki when there are urgent moves to be played. At this point, white already has 2 moves he really needs to take: P3 and something to stabilize the right side. P16 also seems nice.

Sure, in that game, I was letting a lot of unsettled group, I was thinking that was ok in handicap game when playing white, but I still need to find the right way to do it. and to identfiy better when I can tenuki.
I think that's related to my difficuty to identify urgent moves. I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome

skydyr wrote:

is fine locally, but :w21:

is wishy-washy.
You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner.

Oh... ok.... I was thinking this one was fine... but that's another one of my problems... I'm not enougth focused... I ofen play a move and then try something else... I need more focus on what I want to achieve.

skydyr wrote:

is small when the right side is still so urgent.

ok, would you play something in the center of the two right groups like a,b,c or d ? or first extends on P4 (e or f) or even maybe (g) ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm29 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . X . . . . g X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . c d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . f O O . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . e X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

skydyr wrote:

: just seal off the right in sente and then take a big right-side point.

ok I see

skydyr wrote:

Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated.

I tryed and lived, but I also needed :w3:

too I can play it at "a" to help :wt:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm49 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . $$ | . X . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . a O . . . . $$ | . . . X 2 Q X X . , . $$ | . 3 O X O X O . . X . $$ | . . . 1 O X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +-----------------------[/go]

skydyr wrote:

Black is too strong here. This is not an invasion, but suicide. The time to do something here (if you wanted to) was before you gave black the wall extending down from the center-top.

That's a big point for me, sometimes, I cannot help playing impossible invasion... In his book "how not to play go" I think Yuan Zhou called that the "red eye" problem,
always seeing the opponent territory being bigger then our,
and then trying anything to reduce it instead of just playing usefull move...

Finally, I plaed two more game yesterday and they both went fine... but in the first one, what an early resignation from black... I think it was even ahead...

Author:	skydyr [ Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
oca wrote: Hi skydyr, Thanks for your comments... I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome Experience? Not really sure. Maybe looking at stronger players' games. Quote: skydyr wrote: is fine locally, but is wishy-washy. You are invading a 3-space extension, not playing a corner joseki. You can maybe invade the corner later, but should do something with the original stone, or use it to live in the corner in a larger manner. Oh... ok.... I was thinking this one was fine... but that's another one of my problems... I'm not enougth focused... I ofen play a move and then try something else... I need more focus on what I want to achieve. You can invade the corner instead, but the key is to do one or the other and not lose both. Quote: skydyr wrote: is small when the right side is still so urgent. ok, would you play something in the center of the two right groups like a,b,c or d ? or first extends on P4 (e or f) or even maybe (g) ? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm29 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . X . . . . g X . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , O . . . . , . . . . . c d . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . f O O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . X . . . . e X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Honestly, it's hard to play because white owes two moves, I feel. I'd love to take E or F, but my concern is that white will probably get them in gote, letting black split the right side. Maybe take G and try to keep sente to play one line below B. Quote: skydyr wrote: Reading exercise: If you play D2 and black cuts you off at E4, can you live in the corner? This is not a trivial question, but is also somewhat complicated. I tryed and lived, but I also needed too I can play it at "a" to help Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm49 $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O O . . . . . . $$ \| . X . X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . X . . a O . . . . $$ \| . . . X 2 Q X X . , . $$ \| . 3 O X O X O . . X . $$ \| . . . 1 O X X . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +-----------------------[/go]` Is that marked stone important? How much does it cost you if you lose it? How much do you gain in the corner? Quote: Finally, I plaed two more game yesterday and they both went fine... but in the first one, what an early resignation from black... I think it was even ahead... Definitely a weird place to resign. Maybe a sandbagger? I don't know.

Author:

oca [ Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:22 am ]

Post subject:

Re: OCA's log

skydyr wrote:

oca wrote:

I don't know exacltly how to improve my judgement of what is an urgent move... maybe more Tsumego ? an idea welcome

Experience? :scratch:

Not really sure. Maybe looking at stronger players' games.

Yes why not looking at a pro game... that's something new for me...
So first let choose a game... I will pick one from that post : http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10643

here we go, let's try Cho Chikun game n°143 (that's the first one that is marked with a star, and isn't a split game as game 128 is... )

So first thing, just place the moves and get a general feel of the game...

Next steps :
- identify the different phases of the game
- try to do a review of that game from my 14 kyu perspective...
- try to spot tenuki and position where "I" would have tenuki "too early" my self but where the pros didn't tenuki)

Attachments:

Cho Chikun-game_143.sgf [961 Bytes]
Downloaded 1165 times

Author:	oca [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Quote: Next steps : - identify the different phases of the game ... Identifying the phases is allready quite a chalenge for me... So Fuseky starts at move ... 1 but where did the Fuseky ends ? 8 to 34 looks allready complicated to me... but I would say fuseky ends at 40, just before the 3-3 invasion on the top/left corner Mid-game : from 41 to the end... no yose to me in this game as the center white group died... and white resigned. Quote: ... - try to do a review of that game from my 14 kyu perspective... - try to spot tenuki and position where "I" would have tenuki "too early" my self but where the pros didn't tenuki) I will keep the review for the ends and starts with identifying the tenukis the first tenuki is... ? ok... maybe I will skip the first 4 corner moves... so ... well not really a tenuki... that's a san-ren-sei 6 to 27 is a sequence of related moves... is the first tenuki ?, I would say no... it's still related to the previous moves and helps the H3 H4 stones... ? still not a tenuki to me... so I got a winner is the first tenuki to me...

Author:	Knotwilg [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
For me the fuseki ends at move where Black makes a clear choice of continuing to harass the White group. With White keeps the pressure on the Black group to help his own weak group so we're definitely in middle game patterns now. can be seen as a local tenuki but it's not a global one. is clearly tenuki but it's a natural one, as the local fight from bottom to centre has come to a pause with White being 100% alive.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
I would not worry about identifying phases of the game. For one thing, there is no sudden change. I have a book, for instance, about the transition between the opening and middle game. There is a subtle difference between fuseki and the opening. Fuseki is about arraying your stones for battle. An opening fight does not fit that definition. The battle has already started. Also, an opening battle is not part of the middle game. After the opening fight in the lower right, is a fuseki play. FWIW, I would consider the end of the fuseki. Then runs out. But really, what do labels matter?

Author:	Abyssinica [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Bill Spight wrote: I would not worry about identifying phases of the game. For one thing, there is no sudden change. I have a book, for instance, about the transition between the opening and middle game. There is a subtle difference between fuseki and the opening. Fuseki is about arraying your stones for battle. An opening fight does not fit that definition. The battle has already started. Also, an opening battle is not part of the middle game. I remember someone showed me a whole board position tsumego a bit ago. He called it a fuseki problem, but there was a running battle going on. I told him, "This isn't fuseki, this is middle game." "But it's only been 30 moves." "There's a running battle m8"

Author:	oca [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Bill Spight wrote: But really, what do labels matter? I try to improving my appreciation of urgent situation, that's why I try to idenfify "roughly" the different phases of the game. In that game, fuseky may ends near 20 or 50, what's interssting to me is that the difference comes from that sequence in the bottom right corner which seems to be an urgent situation... so I think I will dig a bit into that fighting sequence to see why it was "urgent"

Author:	skydyr [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Antti Tormanen has a great post on his site about the different stages of the game, as well as how to punish out-of-stage mistakes based on when they occur: http://gooften.net/essays/tens-guide-to-studying-professional-games/ It's oriented towards studying professional games, but should be applicable to yours as well.

Author:	oca [ Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Hi skydyr, thank you for the link !

Author: oca [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:11 am ]

Post subject: Re: OCA's log

Quote:

so I think I will dig a bit into that fighting sequence to see why it was "urgent"

So let's come back to that game of Cho Chikun vs Sakata Eio and have a closer look at the fight that start here :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I didn't find any joseki starting like that (in Igowin Joseki and in josekipedia )?
but this move is not marked as a bad answer either... so what is that :w8:

an undefined move ?

Any way let's see the following moves....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 2 1 3 . . B . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . c b . . X . O 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

is allready a surprise too me... I think I would have played at "a", "b"
but I see now that thw hoshi stone would be a bit alone then...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 1 X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

12 - 15 : ok

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . a X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 5 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This

looks very small too me... I would have played "a" so I have something that is not correct in my judgement here...

:b17:

ok, the lader at "a" doesn't work for white.

:w18:

what if white tenuki... black would descend at :w20:

so I think this one was mandatory.

:b19:

a forcing move

:w20:

ok, mandatory too...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 4 . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 2 3 X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

kill eye space in the bottom, and now I think that was also the idea behind :b19:

that is not just a forcing move...

:w22:

looks weird to me... I don't really understand what white want to do here...
just threaten to cut at :b23:

? sure there is more then that... but I miss to spot the whole idea...

:b23:

of course...

:w24:

: still missing the plan... territory ? no... or not only but does that really help the other group ? seems to easy for black to separate...

:b25:

separate....

:w26:

set up a race to the center ? (and gain influance to attck the bottom/right corner ?

That's all for today... I will try to memorize these few moves as an exercice for and I will continue later...

Author: Uberdude [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:23 am ]

Post subject: Re: OCA's log

8 is a joseki and is in josekipedia. The main idea is to get influence, which counters the san ren sei.

http://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhphpi

Mostly ok, but

oca wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . a X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 5 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This

looks very small too me... I would have played "a" so I have something that is not correct in my judgement here...

I presume you mean the p5 "a" not the other one. Black would answer that for nice 4th line territory, but the reason white played 16 in the game is black is threatening to capture 2 stones at 20. By pushing first before defending white makes a cutting point weakness in black's position when he blocks (which forces white to defend). If white just defended and later played the push then black would probably jump to avoid the cutting point. The point is white 16 below has now become unnecessary as 18 and 20 got more liberties for white. So the meaning of the push is white asks black a question: "Are you going to block now which forces me to defend in gote, but the downside for you is you have a cutting point for later?"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 4 . X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 3 O 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, there are some situations where just defending without pushing first is better, if later you would prefer to jump not push:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But this jump is quite thin and endgame style move. However, if that area was very strong black so there was no hope to use the cutting point weakness, then just defend and aim at this jump would probably be best.

22 and 24 is about taking away black's eyeshape whilst developing the lower left area.

Author:	oca [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
me wrote: I didn't find any joseki starting like that (in Igowin Joseki and in josekipedia )? Uberdude wrote: 8 is a joseki and is in josekipedia. The main idea is to get influence, which counters the san ren sei. http://josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhphpi Oh... thanks ! in french we say "Je devrais changer mes lunettes" in that situation which roughly translate to: "I should change my glasses..."

Author:	Charles Matthews [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: OCA's log
Uberdude wrote: However, there are some situations where just defending without pushing first is better, if later you would prefer to jump not push: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm16 $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X X O O . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . X O X . O X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . 9 . O 1 . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]` But this jump is quite thin and endgame style move. However, if that area was very strong black so there was no hope to use the cutting point weakness, then just defend and aim at this jump would probably be best. 22 and 24 is about taking away black's eyeshape whilst developing the lower left area. Yup. Black's diagonal attachment is about making White overconcentrated (if White allows that). On the other hand White is trying to bring the 3-3 point in the left corner into the game, which is tricky: occupying the corner at 3-3 is basically the least flexible standard opening. In the game White is not trying to make low territory, which is what this diagram looks like, but get some attacking prospects by giving Black a weak group next to White's weak group. The peeping play is part of that, and it is not kikashi to create a disposable stone, so White immediately builds on it.

Author: oca [ Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:55 am ]

Post subject: Re: OCA's log

from that position :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

what if black played :b31:

like that [edit](ok that's a bad shape but I'm curious)[/edit]:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . X X O O 3 2 X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . O X X O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

would

then be correct ? and what about that :b33:

next ?

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