Page 15 of 51

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:31 am
by Gresil
The specific reason I dismissed this move is that (it looks to me that) it lets white's pincer-born group and floating group connect with each other and gain attractive potential towards the lower right.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:36 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Attach to our weak stone? Thank you, Topazg! :D
Give us two prisoners while doing it? Thank you again! :D
My prediction is that Violence picks yet a third location - probably L14.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:38 am
by Violence
Image

The previous testimony had a fatal contradiction!

Evidence:
We show the intent to attack, but we're attaching to one of the two groups we want to attack! That's just silly, we should move out and attack both!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Image

Image

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:40 am
by Marcus
A applaud the awesomeness of the previous post.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:46 am
by Violence
Since I don't get to change moves very often, I figured I should make them as epic as possible.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:01 pm
by Gresil
I remember one occasion in the GD half of this game where I made exactly such a non-leaning move and it was changed to a leaning one.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:02 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5?A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ImageHmm...
I thought about attaching to black's new stone from either side, but that seems... naive? Not only would it strengthen their not-strong group, it makes us strengthen one group at the expense of the safety of the other. Similar to atari-ing a cutting stone, I don't want to push my opponent one way until it's clear that that side is less important to me. So I think we ought to try to get a base and some stability on one side, so that we can get it back down to two weakish groups ASAP: one ours and one black. This side seems the correct side to grab some stability, since it's along the wall and can get eyespace. This stone is not safety, but it does buy a bit of breathing room and put a little pressure on the black corner stone. I looked at attacks black can do on our other group (mostly starting with the peep), but I think we will be okay. If ya'all want diagrams of my imagined attacks, I am perfectly glad to draw them. In the mean time, however, this is the move that I think most needs to be played.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:10 pm
by Violence
Which one would that be, Gresil?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:15 pm
by Gresil
I can't remember. I've lost track of the move history.

I see Terr just played the move I'd have played in this situation, and which I envisioned white would play after the sequence that I showed as following from my leaning move. I guess the non-leaning move makes sense after all.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:25 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I approve.

Our central group has lots of room to run, so when black plays a move that threatens both groups, we should defend the other one. Younger brother's choice not only gets a much eye space as we reasonably can, it conveniently happens to be a good approach to the corner.
The only thing that I worried about was that there might be a mutual kakari around L18, and that black would get it first. The most successful attempt by us does reduce black's eyespace, but black gets the corner and then has one eyeless group running between two eyeless groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 8 2 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 9 7 3 . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 0 X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Letting black have that spot first is not too bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . 1 2 4 . . . a . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . b . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


as white has 'a', 'b', and 'c'.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:08 am
by shapenaji
Image

....Approved
I don't love this move, but it costs 4 points to change, and I feel like this is alright. Basically, my issue with this move is that we're going to get really over-concentrated trying to help a single stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . 3 , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


black has a pretty brutal move at "a" later

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:09 am
by Gresil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This slow tug was my #2 option.

Arguments against the keima cap:
- I can't predict :w2: at all
- White is able to tenuki and still make a living group on the top
- L12, the other candidate move, is a focal point

Arguments against the jump:
- May provoke the white center group to strengthen itself at the expense of the black group on its left side and return in sente to further attack the top right corner.
- White would not play in that area yet if it was his turn, and he definitely won't play there in response to the keima cap.


Other moves I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . 2 1 , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This weakens my top center group. L12 is looming.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is too wimpy.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61A: W 31, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 1 2 . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have no idea what happens and I don't know what I would be trying to achieve here.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:28 pm
by topazg
Not approved :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 61B: W 33, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's hold this corner, and bumpy over-concentrate White. There's no point attacking more severely with the slide in the corner open, so let's have fun on this side. White can't run his way out to happiness without hurting his floating middle group, so there's still some awkward decisions for White to make. This feels worth 2 points to me.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:42 pm
by Violence
Approved.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:04 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 62A: W 33, B 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . W , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Does not seem to work
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . W 1 . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Because we cannot yet attach and attack directly, I see two options. Either we can respond to the kick in the usual way (standing up with an iron pillar) or we can tenuki, forcing black to do further to kill this area. However, I think at the moment that we are better off trying to live on top, to reduce black to a small corner and a weak(ish) group. This is for two reasons: first, if we live up there reasonably, black loses a potential fifth+ line territory. Secondly, my siblings corrected me when I attempted to tenuki to the east, and did not correct my approach in the top. So for both reasons, I shall declare that the top is biggest, and try to defend it. My only concern is that we could weaken our central group, or worst of all, create two weak groups at once. There are ways to try to connect our new group (for example, starting at K19), so I am mostly concerned with the central group. So I will play to strengthen our top group (strengthen your stones when contacted), and keep an eye on the center group, ready to whisk it away if it needs it. The alternative to the iron pillar would be to try to connect under with K19 immediately, but that seems more of a last-minute desperation measure. I would rather live if possible than be forced to connect one or two stones low.