Life In 19x19

I suppose we should soon see an announcement, since today is arrival day for the IMSA
https://www.intergofed.org/igf-news-fee ... rules.html

munster wrote:1. I hope that Eric recognizes his responsibility to come out and resign this game. Remaining silent is unsportsmanlike to Mateusz and also has a negative impact on his image as a player and the whole tournament.

It's not Eric's responsibility to resign - it's the organizers' responsibility to make a decision. One could just as easily say that Mateusz is being unsportsmanlike not to accept his loss by time, which is equally ridiculous.

Keep banging the drum

Bear in mind this is a team event, so whilst Eric may be happy to resign if it were just him who losses out from doing so, he may feel a responsibility to the rest of the team to not to do. Or others in the team or team captain may want him not to.

Uberdude wrote:Another entirely foreseeable problem of internet play is misclicks.

sorin wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

sorin wrote:Keep rules simple: no undo.

With its built-in trackpad, my computer clicks without my clicking at all. \

Bill, you can invest in a better mouse for the next online tournament

Or set the software so that a double click on the same spot is required to make a play. Edit: For instance, the first click changes the color of the point to indicate that it is the proposed play. A second click on that point makes the play.

My concern with any well intended rule for misclicks is that it will be abused in creative ways, and create more trouble than it's worth:

Good point.

I kind of like a double click alternative. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, Click, but verify.

Javaness2 wrote:Keep banging the drum

Same to you, buddy!

Uberdude wrote:Bear in mind this is a team event, so whilst Eric may be happy to resign if it were just him who losses out from doing so, he may feel a responsibility to the rest of the team to not to do. Or others in the team or team captain may want him not to.

For this type of team event, this suggestion, I forget who made it, is interesting. Let Eric continue against the next opponent. Mateusz is, however, not eliminated, but simply moved to last in line on the EGF team. A kind of Eric won, but Mateusz did not lose solution. (For those who recall it, the apparently non-sensical ruling, White won, but Black did not lose, occurred in team competition between East and West Japan. )

It is not clear that Eric can resign. A resignation is something that happens in the game. But the game is not in progress. It is over, or suspended, or under adjudication.

The point about it being a team responsibility, not a personal choice, is also quite good.

Bill Spight wrote:(For those who recall it, the apparently non-sensical ruling, White won, but Black did not lose, occurred in team competition between East and West Japan. )

Sorry... when? I'm a bit of a Kansai kiin fanboy. Or do you mean another "West Japan"?

Take care.

Kirby wrote:

munster wrote:1. I hope that Eric recognizes his responsibility to come out and resign this game. Remaining silent is unsportsmanlike to Mateusz and also has a negative impact on his image as a player and the whole tournament.

It's not Eric's responsibility to resign - it's the organizers' responsibility to make a decision. One could just as easily say that Mateusz is being unsportsmanlike not to accept his loss by time, which is equally ridiculous.

Mateusz has reported connectivity/lag issues during his game, which are circumstances beyond his control that negatively impacted the game. Despite this, the game was played almost to completion, and reached a position where one side has an extremely high probability of winning. At this high level of play, it would have been possible for Eric to resign even 10-20 moves before the move which timed out.

Therefore, it is unsportsmanlike for Eric not to resign, but Mateusz has no obligation to resign as he was leading. In the spirit of the game it is 100% Eric's responsibility to resign, and should have been done immediately a few hours after this match was played and the incident having occurred. It allows for the tournament organizers to withhold a ruling which would potentially be fraught with controversy, and also potentially set a precedent they do not want to set.

The organizers then can freely prepare a written document of rules in the event that something similar happens again, to account for lag time-outs, connectivity issues, etc. and the process for which players can report such issues, and the steps that the organizers would take.

One can argue that it is unfair to place this burden on Eric and that the organizers could have prepared better for corner cases (lag, connectivity issues, etc.), but life is random, and it happens that things have already reached this stage. I would still strongly suggest Eric come out to resign, not only to save the spirit of the game but to allow the tournament organizers to freely be able to implement new rules to reduce the possibility of such a dispute taking place again.

Ferran wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:(For those who recall it, the apparently non-sensical ruling, White won, but Black did not lose, occurred in team competition between East and West Japan. )

Sorry... when? I'm a bit of a Kansai kiin fanboy. Or do you mean another "West Japan"?

Take care.

This rules crisis occurred at the Nihon Kiin in 1928, before official written rules. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?TenThousandYea ... ulesCrisis . The Kansai Kiin was not formed until 1950. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?KansaiKiIn

And the official rules were not written until 1949.

munster wrote:
Mateusz has reported connectivity/lag issues during his game, which are circumstances beyond his control that negatively impacted the game. Despite this, the game was played almost to completion, and reached a position where one side has an extremely high probability of winning. At this high level of play, it would have been possible for Eric to resign even 10-20 moves before the move which timed out.

Therefore, it is unsportsmanlike for Eric not to resign, but Mateusz has no obligation to resign as he was leading.

I hear what you are saying, but I think you are going too far to say anything about sportsmanship. Time settings are part of the game, and Mateusz lost on time. The fact that the board position favored Mateusz and that he claims to have misclicked allow for us to consider an exception to the time rules, and in the spirit of the game - as you reference, try to come up with a better solution.

But to say that Eric is in any way being unsportsmanlike is going too far. If we are being strict with the rules, Eric is the winner of the game - not saying that should be the final result, but it's wrong to say that Eric is unsportsmanlike.

I could call Mateusz a bad sport for not accepting the time loss, but that wouldn't be very nice, would it? Neither player is a bad sport - they'll get the result decision, just like the rest of us.

Kirby wrote:I hear what you are saying, but I think you are going too far to say anything about sportsmanship. Time settings are part of the game, and Mateusz lost on time. The fact that the board position favored Mateusz and that he claims to have misclicked allow for us to consider an exception to the time rules, and in the spirit of the game - as you reference, try to come up with a better solution.

He didn't say it was a missclick, he did say it was a lag. If that's truly the case, then this loss on time is due to circumstances outside his control. Imagine in a game IRL being physically unable to place your stone on the board and losing on time because of that.

Tryss wrote:
He didn't say it was a missclick, he did say it was a lag. If that's truly the case, then this loss on time is due to circumstances outside his control. Imagine in a game IRL being physically unable to place your stone on the board and losing on time because of that.

Thanks, I meant to say lag - there was some discussion earlier about the possibility of misclicks in tournaments, so I said the wrong phrase here. And yes, it is possible for lag to be out of your control (though, it's possible that negative effects of lag may be mitigated by a player by, e.g., trying not to play close to the end of byo-yomi periods, etc., but that discussion is probably too hypothetical for this discussion).

Note that by KGS rules, such circumstances - even though they may be out of your control - result in a time loss. If I'm playing a rated game, on the verge of getting to 4d from a 3d rank, and then my internet connection lags out and I run out of time... I lose the game and don't get a rank promotion. The ranking system is not forgiving. It's not ideal, but it's still a loss.

AGAIN, I'll say that I am not arguing that it should be ruled in this tournament that Mateusz should lose on time. I AM arguing that it is unkind and unfair to argue that Eric should be trying resign. Besides, as pointed out, a resign should not even be technically possible at this point, because the game is either over or in a state of limbo.

I'll say sarcastically, next time your opponent lags on you and loses the game when you're playing a rated game on KGS, shame on you for not resigning!

I am afraid this incident may have very serious consequences.
Remember WWI, it started for a seemingly absurd reason too.
And four EGF members possess nuclear weapons.