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Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=152

Page 17 of 51

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:41 am
by Violence
Approved.

No complaints.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:29 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 65A: W 33, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . W . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, this is the attack I was expecting and concerned with. However, perhaps it won't be too bad. I choose this move for two reasons: first, it's the shortest line to get out of the sector, and second, we can actually put pressure on both sides. The group to the right isn't entirely settled, and the group at the left has some flaws. I would have to check my reading if we get to it, but previously I had read that we could threaten D13 to get a cut at G8. While this means nothing now, if we get pushed far enough south, we can cut to give black a weak group. Even if we don't kill it, it could offer enough threat to give us sente to defend our running group. So I play diagonal so that we are still close enough to both sides to potentially threaten.

I hate it when I make go tags around my hide statement instead of hide tags.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:52 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I'm on Santa Catalina island ( about 25 miles off of the coast of LA ) right now, celebrating our 4th anniversary, so I'm not posting much. Below are some thoughts, with some good material for beginners.


Note to beginners: a 'sector line' is an imaginary line drawn between two stones to define an area that those two stones - with their attendant groups - probably can surround, given reasonably good play by both sides.

There are three examples below. They are a bit simplified to illustrate the concept. In all three examples the sector line is drawn in blue.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . O . X . . . , . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { LN M15 Q16 }
$$ { LN B4 F4 }
$$ { LN O4 S4 }[/go]


The first white group, in the upper right, is inside the sector line, and is doomed. The second group, in the lower left, is just at the sector line, and probably can get away. The third group, in the lower right, has extended outside the sector line and can escape easily.

The probable play for each example looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black 'a', white 'b', black 'c', then white 'd'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 2 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 9 c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 5 8 7 . . . . . . 3 . 2 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 4 d . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O 6 X . . . , . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . X . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thos three examples illustrate the general rule that being short of the sector line gets you trapped - and maybe killed; being right at the sector line is uncertain; and being outside of the secor line usually means that you can't be trapped.

BTW, as a general rule, being trapped is often not preferred, even if you can make two eyes. This is bad for at least two reasons. First, when trapped, you are an easy target for ko threats. Second, a group that is locked in cannot assist other groups. So often we look for ways to get out even if we have eye space.


Now, back to the particulars of the game...

Currently, we have two groups that are in danger of being trapped. One is just at the sector line. It does not have eye space if it gets locked in. The other is short of it's secor line, and probably has eye space if it gets locked in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Possibly one eye, not two. Just at sector line.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X W X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X 4 X W W X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . 3 . W . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 5 X . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . 6 . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 7 . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X 2 X . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN G10 L12 }[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Probably two eyes, but well inside the sector line.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . 2 1 . . . 9 3 4 . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . W X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . W . . W , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . W . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { LN L12 Q14 }[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:07 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I approve.

I really want to help the group that is way behind the sector line. But I can't find a way to live after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . 2 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:31 pm
by shapenaji
Approved.
I approved the last one too quickly, black's last move should have been ours, the top group didn't need much help. This is necessary now

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:14 am
by Gresil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67A: W 33, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67A: W 33, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O C . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . 1 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . 3 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



White has to cover the cutting point.

The other option I could see was N12, but I think I have the upper hand in this situation and see no need to draw back like that.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:49 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Hmmm...looks premature. I think we're going to get 2 more points. :D

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:16 am
by topazg
Not approved.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . C . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, lots of reasons for this. Again, I actually think gresil's right, we want to find ways of maintaining an attack on both White groups, and hitting one in sente helps attack the other. However, I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't that top group we want to attack. So, instead, I'm going to play with the idea of forcing this White group to the right, and hopefully we'll get to seal in White's top group, either to live in gote, or to die.

First question before playing this is obviously "can we be sealed in ourselves?", but I don't think so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67A: W 33, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . 3 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . 2 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Also, that lower area is something White will want to develop, so if we can get stones on the lower facing side of the middle this will help influence the lower side of the board. It's also pretty light and expendable if it has to be, so being cut off from the Black stones to the left is not a disaster either. We'll see if Violence cringes at this or not :)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:49 am
by Joaz Banbeck
I think we're going to get another free stone. :D

My guess is that Violence will happily pay 1 stone to do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For beginners:
Lets look at the plans and goals and direction for each of the five groups that are involved in this fight.

1) This long group has at least one eye in the middle, and can easily make another over on the left side ( these areas marked with squares ). It has no defensive concerns. Offensively, it wants to split the two white groups that don't yet have eyes. The gap though which it must push to do this is big, and cannot be closed by white for several moves yet. So this group is in no hurry to act, either on offence or defense.
Capping, as Topazg wants to do, while not a bad move, is a low priority move played at the expense of higher priority moves.

FWIW, a secondary direction of play for this group is sliding into the corner because, if nothing else, it is a corner. It may become a higher priority if the white group in the lower left starts needing the corner for eye space.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O B O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O B . B O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O B . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O B . . B . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B S . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O B . B . . W . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . S B . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . W . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR G9 J7 }
$$ { AR G7 J5 }
$$ { AR C5 B3 }[/go]




2) This group has no eyes, and is running. Its direction is primarily away from the strong group to the west, trying to enclose the eyeless black stones to the east. A secondary direction is to go southward just to stay alive. It does not really want to run southward, as this means running along past an enemy wall, but it will do so if it must to stay alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X W X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X W W X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . W . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . W . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR L10 O10 }
$$ { AR K9 K8 }[/go]



3) This black group has no eyes yet, but can get them in gote if necessary ( around the area marked with the squares ). The fact that J19 is sente to kill the white group to the west gives black just enough room to do this. Making eyes in gote is not desirable except as a last ditch measure.
This group is just barely behind the sector line, and would like to get out, as doing so threatens both of its neighbors. It is probably best to go out between the white groups without touching either, so as to be equally threatening to both, thus keeping white uncertain about where to defend.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O B S S S . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O B B S S . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O B S B . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . B . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR L12 N10 }
$$ { LN K10 N14 }[/go]



4) This white group has easy life in gote around the area marked with a square if it has first play to get to L18. Moves like Q15 and P14 may help, although they are aji-keshi.
When living involves aji-keshi and/or losing sente, it is a last ditch alternative.
The best play for this group is to run out to the south, threatening the black neighbors to the west as it runs.

It would also like to interfere with black's potential to make territory along the right side ( in the area marked with the triangles ) by getting there first. But this is a distant fantasy.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . S . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . W X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . W . . W , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . W . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . T . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR N14 O11 }[/go]


5) This group already has eye space ( in the area indicated by the square ) and can make territory going southward. Doing this also endangers the white group to its west.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . S . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , B . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . B . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR Q13 Q10 }[/go]


Summary: so when all five groups are examined, we can see that black has three groups with the following directions of play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . S . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ { AR Q13 Q10 }
$$ { AR L12 N10 }
$$ { AR G7 J5 }[/go]


The leftmost and rightmost groups have eye space and are not in danger of being surrounded. The middle one has no eyes, and is behind the sector line.
Furthermore, playing from the left group encourages white's neighboring group to play in the direction that it wants to go. Playing from the middle group impedes that.

Black's play at M11 is a no brainer, IMHO.

EDIT: Several stronger players disagree with my answer, so there may be something wrong with my analysis.


@Violence:
It is ok for you to read the rest of this post AFTER you move. If you do, and if my prediction has not turned out to be correct, plesase tell the observers why. Thanks.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:25 am
by Gresil
Oh yeah, I see that move now...


The bottom is something to keep an eye on.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:56 pm
by topazg
Thought I'd try something new. Moves I've rejected (I put these in here to show what I've considered - if anyone thinks "Hey, that's where I would have moved, why didn't you move at "x"?" I'll explain why I rejected it):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . d c . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O f e . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And what I'm aiming for:

Basically, there's a big fight happening, and it will leave dame points trailing in its wake. Simply running out to keep separated (the diagonal move being the most obvious, but most of those other considerations work to that end) is in my mind not severe enough. We're just running to live really, and either one of the White groups is virtually settled with the next move. I don't feel that's good enough in a position like this, so instead I play to make the middle White group as uncomfortable as possible. It's a narrow line to walk, because if Black starts to get sealed in or risk outright death, it's going to turn into simply a mistake. However, White's top right group is too far away to succeed in sealing this Black group in, so that's not a White option. Furthermore, by being forced to run across the Black group, White's middle group will strength Black so attacking that top right group becomes a reality. If White turns to defend it, Black carries on attacking the middle group - but importantly, this time, actually getting some value from the attack (thickness facing the lower edge). I'm aiming for the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . C . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . 3 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Essentially, both sides have 4th line stones facing the middle of the right edge - this makes it important from a development point of view, but hard for either side to make that many points there - if I can encourage this fight to spread in that direction, I'm happy that neither side is gaining or losing much from it. However, that lower side has 4th line White stones at both sides, and White's ability to develop some serious points down there is quite concerning. If Black builds up some thickness facing in that direction, it becomes much harder for White to assert authority. If black can get in that desired move, White must protect in the corner, and it's not even easy to pincer Black along the lower edge for a good result, as Black should be able to make thickness from the middle facing it.

We'll see... :)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:52 pm
by Magicwand
to topazg:
i agree with your move. it has a flow. i dont see any better move.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:35 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
topazg wrote:...if anyone thinks "Hey, that's where I would have moved, why didn't you move at "x"?" I'll explain why I rejected it...



If 'anyone' includes your humble opponents, I'm curious why you rejected 'd'; I thought that it was your best move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . d . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:52 pm
by daniel_the_smith
I agree with Topazg and Magicwand. Topazg's move is an inducing move, it forces white to force black to play where black wanted to play anyway. The only reason in this position to play from the middle group directly (like Joaz wants to) is if white can seal black in with one move. I don't think white can, but I haven't done any reading. One should read carefully before playing a move like that...

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:15 pm
by Magicwand
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
topazg wrote:...if anyone thinks "Hey, that's where I would have moved, why didn't you move at "x"?" I'll explain why I rejected it...



If 'anyone' includes your humble opponents, I'm curious why you rejected 'd'; I thought that it was your best move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . d . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i will give you one reason why your move is not optimal.
from below points f is better than d.
if you dont understand why.. dont worry about it. you will begin to see when you get stronger.
experiment d and f in similar situation... usally d is weak filling dame move. f is often strong move that usually seeking the flow of the game.
but in this situation.. topazg found the best move in my opinion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 67B: W 35, B 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X . O . . O , X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . d c . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O f e . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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