$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Doesn't this just lose a ko threat? The below move offers two threats of the same strength. The move actually played offers one solid threat and then a threat of replacing one ko by another, possibly smaller one.
There are some endgame considerations, but I would be interested to see Violence's reasons for rejecting this move, if this is the area he chose to threat in.
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:55 am
by daniel_the_smith
@Bantari
I wouldn't have played your move because black's response gives black better endgame on top. I think it loses at least two points compared to Violence's move. I don't think playing lossy ko threats is tolerable unless you're certain you're going to win the ko.
I could be wrong though.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:13 pm
by Bantari
daniel_the_smith wrote:@Bantari
[hide]I wouldn't have played your move because black's response gives black better endgame on top. I think it loses at least two points compared to Violence's move. I don't think playing lossy ko threats is tolerable unless you're certain you're going to win the ko.
I could be wrong though.
You are right. This is why I mentioned the 'endgame considerations'.
However - There are some positions in which a potential 2-3 points of endgame gain or loss is not the most important thing when deciding on a move. Such might be this situation, since this KO and related issues might well determine the outcome long before the endgame gets into the 2-3 points range. But maybe not...
It depends on how the players evaluate the sequence of KO plays. In other words, which will be the threat to have to be unanswered, which side will have to ignore it, and what will be its size. And this size has to be evaluated for the sequence starting with my move and with the played move, and then the points difference needs to be calculated and compared to the potential endgame impact of 2-3 points. So I see it as a pretty complex problem, especially in such slow game when both players actually have the time to think about that.
I am not saying my move is better, only that I wonder: a) if Violence considered it, and b) if so, what was the reasoning behind rejecting it (was it the 2-3 points endgame or was it the evaluation of Ko-threat sequence?)
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:27 pm
by Li Kao
@Bantari Then why don't you ask him? It's too late for him to play your move, so you won't influence the game.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:39 pm
by Bantari
Li Kao wrote:@Bantari Then why don't you ask him? It's too late for him to play your move, so you won't influence the game.
Because I forgot to insert the @Violence thingy... Not very well-versed in the M-games. Yet. Also - if he does not think like that at all, would it be fair for me to draw his attention to such considerations? For the next move... Dunno...
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:32 pm
by Magicwand
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 3 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 3 . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
to observers.. you can also ask me. i can tell you many answers to your questions also
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:36 pm
by Bantari
Magicwand wrote:to observers.. you can also ask me. i can tell you many answers to your questions also
Thx for offering. I will when I need to. For know I know your answers.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:48 pm
by Violence
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . 3 . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=4, B=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . 3 . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 1 . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After some reading...
Cut me. I dare you.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:00 pm
by Magicwand
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O 1 . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O 1 . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X 2 . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:06 pm
by Violence
Next move will be tomorrow.
Complicated... gotta read...
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:49 am
by Fredrik
Bantari wrote:
Violence wrote:
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | W X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Doesn't this just lose a ko threat? The below move offers two threats of the same strength. The move actually played offers one solid threat and then a threat of replacing one ko by another, possibly smaller one.
There are some endgame considerations, but I would be interested to see Violence's reasons for rejecting this move, if this is the area he chose to threat in.
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We should only resort to damaging ko-threats when we are in fact desperate. If Violence had a big dragon that was up for ko, then damaging ko-threats could be justify because he had to. In this kind of position, the ko can be regarded as a flower-ko for white because if he lose the ko he lose nothing valuable. This means there are several ko other ko-threats on the board. Any move that would give White a solid lead if Black does not respond can be regarded as a ko-threat. And making a damaging ko-threat (I think it loses more then two-points as Black can severely reduce the top with a move at C19) for a ko-threat would be terrible deal for white when he's playing a flower-ko.
Hopefully I explained this properly, but if you want further explanation please tell me!
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:50 am
by topazg
Fredrik wrote:
We should only resort to damaging ko-threats when we are in fact desperate. If Violence had a big dragon that was up for ko, then damaging ko-threats could be justify because he had to. In this kind of position, the ko can be regarded as a flower-ko for white because if he lose the ko he lose nothing valuable. This means there are several ko other ko-threats on the board. Any move that would give White a solid lead if Black does not respond can be regarded as a ko-threat. And making a damaging ko-threat (I think it loses more then two-points as Black can severely reduce the top with a move at C19) for a ko-threat would be terrible deal for white when he's playing a flower-ko.
Hopefully I explained this properly, but if you want further explanation please tell me!
I'm so glad you said this, as I wondered about this too and felt too underqualified to say it. My feel for this ko is moves that just pick up points - moves you'd like to play anyway, especially if you could follow them up:
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=3, B=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X W . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:10 am
by Violence
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yeah... I could... just reduce this to two points... and win the game...
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Profit in sente, yada yada.
That's not satisfying enough for me...
Since I already feel I'm ahead, why not just aggressively increase the lead until he resigns?
I woke up and thought to myself, why does the tiebreak match have to end in a point difference?
Let's force res.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:22 am
by daniel_the_smith
Is irrational exuberance a requirement to be 4d+?
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:32 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Rearranged post with extra stuff explaining why Violence should resign:
Actually, it is closer to 'why Magicwand should resign".
Violence wrote: ...
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 8 X , 5 . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 6 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
... Let's force res.
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 . X X O b . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X c d . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 . X X O b . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X c d . . X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 1 X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | 3 X 4 2 O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
How does black defend here? 'A' and 'b' are miai, as are 'c' and 'd'.
I figured out the answer to my own question.
$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X 4 . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . X X O 3 . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 2 5 6 X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X 4 . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . X X O 3 . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 2 5 6 X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O X O O O . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and even if white dodges one ko with above, the sequence below forces him into another ko:
$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . X X O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O 4 O X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X O O O 1 X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O X O O O 2 O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O 5 . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O . X X O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O 4 O X . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O X O O O 1 X X O . X X X . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O X O O O 2 O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O 5 . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
FWIW, this suggests a possible future strategy for white. If he could play someplace else so that the above sequence is not possible, such a move would be a threat to kill unconditionally. Say, for example, that white played above, it would be a threat to kill. So...
If white played something like this:
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . a X O O O . X X O 2 X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O 3 O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=5, B=9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . | $$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . O X . X O X O X O . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . W . . . O O O . . | $$ | . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . X . X . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . X . X 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . a X O O O . X X O 2 X X X . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X O O O 3 O . O . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O O . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
then threatens both 'a' and 'b'. White's latest move seems to support this theory.
above, the sequence below forces him into another ko:
above, it would be a threat to kill. So...
threatens both 'a' and 'b'. White's latest move seems to support this theory.