Page 18 of 20

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:40 am
by Joaz Banbeck
TIM82 wrote:... :b18: :w18:...
:tmbup:

To extend or not to extend...?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:11 am
by Joaz Banbeck
For observers:
Let's assume that we don't extend. ( this is the simple line )
Then :b1: is the only move.

For beginners:
It is the only way to ensure a false eye at B10. The other atari looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B The squared stone at B10 becomes an eye
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 2 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . # O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This makes life too easy for white.

And white must capture at A10:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For beginners:
Letting black capture the C10/D10 stones makes all of his stones safe. White can't let this happen unless he wants to sacrifice them and get an outside wall.
Playing D11 just postpones the problem for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 2 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O O X a . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White will still have to capture with 4, and now he doesn't have the forcing move at 'a', which may be useful in some lines to keep black locked in against the side.

So we end up with this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White 4 fills at B10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 3 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The advantage of this line is that it is forcing for black: it avoids all sorts of troubles caused by white having an extra move while not in atari.

The disadvantage is that it starts making two eyes for white: one at A11 and on at A9.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | C O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | C O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Therefore, black would much prefer to get this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...which is achieved by this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 2 O 3 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | 4 O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White 8 fills at 5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X 7 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 5 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This, BTW, is the other alternative: the one in which black does extend.

The problem for black is that the extension is not sente. White can go for the line shown above, but he doesn't have to. He has a spare move to interpose. This can lead to lots of complications:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If any one of these variations has a line that looks good for white, then it refutes the extension, and we will have to go for the immediate atari.

So, it may be that we have to settle for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White 4 fills at B10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 3 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...in which the white stones are stronger than the two black stones, so black must play 5 to escape.

So, in conclusion, the entertaining question for the observers is: can younger brother find ways to handle ALL possible white plays after the extension?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:14 pm
by Splatted
@Tim:

Thanks I'm looking forward to the post game discussion as much as reading the hidden comments, and sometimes I'm tempted to resign just so we can start now. :mrgreen:


Game Comment:

This correction is easier to accept. We'll see about the ensuing sequence, but the move Tim picked was the move I thought was the best local option, and in all honesty I can see that this fight is very important. I started to have serious doubts about my move as soon as I played it, but in a way I'm still glad that I got to see that the atari was the move that Tim wanted.

I mentioned before that I had resolved to stop playing moves I dislike and this situation is a prime example of why. It's mostly about pushing myself to experiment so I can become the kind of creative go player who (regardless of actual success) sees the board as being full of possibilities, but it's also about encouraging myself to avoid getting in to these situations in the first place because it can mean that bad situations that could have been endured with a small loss become catastrophic disasters.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:51 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As described earlier.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:26 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Sometimes you just have to trust younger brother... :salute:

I approve.

I can't see any obvious disasters for us. Although there are a few potential variations that are going to give me nightmares tonight.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:35 pm
by Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | 5 O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't have enough liberties to let him get out of atari, so this is kinda forced. Obviously I have the choice of which side to play on but I can't see that it makes a difference. I played on this side because it's less surrounded so at least won't be auto captured if I sacrifice C10 for some reason.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:23 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I'll sleep better tonight. :)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:45 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
For observers:
Once white is forced into a dumpling, then there are options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The natural attempt to get more liberties with C7 leads to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 9 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 5 O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White 6 takes the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So maybe black tries B6 instead of C6
Which initially looks good for white because he is ahead 4 to 3 libeties...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White appears to be ahead in liberties
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 6 O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But the natural liberty filling from the outside does not work for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White loses because he needs an approach move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc So white starts the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can take the side, losing the corner, and getting sente...
or black can fight the ko for at least one more move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black continues the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O 6 X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks better for black ( because white has to make the first ko threat ) but in is hard to be sure.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:02 am
by skydyr
Tim82?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:03 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Qui tacet consentiret.
- Sir Thomas More

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:27 pm
by skydyr
Joaz Banbeck wrote:Qui tacet consentiret.
- Sir Thomas More

:lol:

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:16 pm
by TIM82
Approved.

Sorry guys, I missed Splatted's last post completely for some reason.

I would play as below, as it seem much more fun if nothing else, but I can't convince myself quickly that it's really clearly better. I was still tempted to correct. It would probably lead to more corrections on both sides, though, some lines seem quite hairy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 5 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:10 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . O 6 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | 5 O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3:, :w6: at mark, :w4: left of mark
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 2 O 1 5 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X B O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is expected, which leaves us here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X B b . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm looking at the marked stone right now to threaten a ladder and the attack on the center group, and at A to prepare by threatening capture. B, to strengthen the center group a bit but threaten the cutting stone, also looks interesting.

In response to the marked stone, though, white has a strong reply in B, breaking the ladder and strengthening the group. I'm thinking about following it up with two ataris from the lower group on the cutting stone, followed by A or one point below it. I also have aji around C I could work with. I will write more later as it comes up.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:31 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Approved, of course.

For observers:
This is weird. It seems that everybody must have seen this shape coming for the last 5 or 6 moves. But nobody wants to avoid it.
I think that it is good for us. So does my partner. But the opponents seem to think that it is good enough for them. Only opposing younger brother has made any attempt to avoid it - and that only by tenuki.

Does Tim82 see some line that I have missed? By atariing at A9, they have bypassed all of the lines that look dangerous.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:33 am
by Joaz Banbeck
I'm on a business trip right now, and internet access may be irregular.
So I'm posting several triggers.

For all three other players to read, after Skydyr makes his next move:
If Skydyr throws in at B10, I approve.

For all three players to read after Skydyr makes move 57:
If Skydyr ataris at D11, I approve