Life In 19x19

Well, I`m just not satisfied with my progress. Either I cannot improve much more, or I`ve been failing to use effective methods. Since I`ve got better at other things I`ve tried hard at over time, I think the second possibility it much likelier.

Among other things, I am coming to believe I have spent too much time reading strategy books, and not enough time training with L&D and actually playing the game. Further, I`ve tended to stick to playing people around the same as myself or slightly weaker, and have been too proud to take a handicap. Yes, it can be infuriarating having somebody dance around you in a handicap game, but you also learn a lot from it. You have to look forward to the time when you`ll be the one doing the nifty dancing.

Finally, I`m starting to "see" a way in which observation may not be as crucial as I thought it was. It`s what you can see in your mind`s eye that counts, not what you can see with your physical ones.

Less speculating, more go.

Either I cannot improve much more, or I`ve been failing to use effective methods. Since I`ve got better at other things I`ve tried hard at over time, I think the second possibility it much likelier.

Tami: I agree that you can still improve significantly, but I don't think the second possibility really applies. I think you are already on the right course there My assessment, based on your various comments elsewhere but also on the game above, is that the bugbear is getting rid of old bad habits, e.g. that overplay when a honte was called for. The fact you spotted it yourself shows it's not the knowledge that was lacking, but the old habit that kicked in, and so the new knowledge didn't even get a chance to shine.

Trouble is, nobody seems very sure of a good way to break old habits - short of electroshock therapy maybe Any good ideas, anyone?

John Fairbairn wrote:Trouble is, nobody seems very sure of a good way to break old habits - short of electroshock therapy maybe Any good ideas, anyone?

I only know of one way -- getting yelled at by a good teacher. For certain individuals and certain bad habits, maybe once or twice is enough.
For some people and some bad habits, it takes many times -- that's my experience. YMMV.

John Fairbairn wrote:Trouble is, nobody seems very sure of a good way to break old habits - short of electroshock therapy maybe Any good ideas, anyone?

I`ve found in life, generally speaking, that there are two cures for specific mistakes:

* making a really, really silly mistake with lots of emotional pain (for example, the time I bought an Austin Allegro before I had even gained my licence)
* making a mistake on enough occasions (finally realising that, with the exception of crockery and stationery, Daiso products break immediately)

In go, I`ve been a lot more careful of connections ever since I threw away a won position against Helen Harvey that would probably have won me a nice trophy a few years ago (Cure One). I need to play more to get more of both Cure Two and Cure One (hopefully not too much of it, though).

EdLee wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote:Trouble is, nobody seems very sure of a good way to break old habits - short of electroshock therapy maybe Any good ideas, anyone?

I only know of one way -- getting yelled at by a good teacher. For certain individuals and certain bad habits, maybe once or twice is enough.
For some people and some bad habits, it takes many times -- that's my experience. YMMV.

At one school in Japan, I noticed that naughty children were given a good talking to. And I mean a good talking to. As in, a very lengthy and detailed harangue by a pair of teachers up against the wall.

I did wonder whether I ought to employ a go teacher, preferably a very senior geezer, to do something similar with me - "なんでそんな手打ったじゃろうか、おまえ。俺の時間無駄してるかなあああ" etc., etc. I think it could work, but the student would have to be ready for it.

The only reason I didn`t "like" your post is that I don`t actually agree with yellings unless the student is prepared for it. I prefer a strict but kind approach.

Tami wrote:I don`t actually agree with yellings unless the student is prepared for it. I prefer a strict but kind approach.

Yes and no, and here's why.
Of course, this depends heavily on the teacher and the student and their relationship and the exact circumstances, just like in Go.
I was only talking about my experience, thus "YMMV." There is no one-size-fit-all approach to teaching.
In some cases, for some students, it's better if they're prepared for the yelling. (I've seen many examples of this.)
In some cases, for some students, it's better if they're not prepared for it. (And yes, I've also seen many examples of this.)
Even for the same student, in some cases, it's better if they're prepared for it, and in some other cases, no. (I've seen many examples of this, too.)
It really is just like Go -- it depends so heavily on the situation.

It's the same with the "strict but kind approach" -- this works for some teachers/some students.
This could also fail miserably for some teachers/some students.
For example, say a teacher tries a "strict but kind approach" on a particular student to fix his bad habits.
After 10 years, nothing's changed -- he's still making the same bad habits.
What to do next? A few continuations:
- Give up on the student about fixing these particular bad habits
- Continue with this "strict but kind approach" (for how long? Another 10 years? Another 30 years?)
- Try another route
Who knows? Maybe a good yelling will suddenly help the student (or, maybe not) --
but we don't know until we try it; after all, the 10 years of "strict and kind approach" has not worked.
The teacher can also try another 10 years of "strict and kind approach" to see if it helps
the student fix his bad habits -- maybe for this student, it takes 20 years. Who knows.

Anyway, the point is, Tami, you have to find out what works for you.
If a "strict but kind approach" works for you, great.

My experience is that every student is different, and a really good teacher recognises what the student is going to benefit best from rather than running through long periods of incorrect trial and error approaches.

Truly good teachers are few and far between though.

topazg wrote:Truly good teachers are few and far between though.

Correct.

topazg wrote:My experience is that every student is different, and a really good teacher recognises what the student is going to benefit best from rather than running through long periods of incorrect trial and error approaches.

Also correct, but with a caveat (exceptions): what about the case of the really difficult student where only long periods of incorrect trial and error have a chance to work?
As we all agree, "every student is different"; for every really good teacher, there must also be a really difficult student (and vice versa).

Education is a very difficult problem, with infinite exceptions.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33469415/ns ... on-reform/
Changing Education Paradigms, by Sir Ken Robinson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

EdLee wrote:

topazg wrote:Truly good teachers are few and far between though.

Correct.

topazg wrote:My experience is that every student is different, and a really good teacher recognises what the student is going to benefit best from rather than running through long periods of incorrect trial and error approaches.

Also correct, but with a caveat (exceptions): what about the case of the really difficult student where only long periods of incorrect trial and error have a chance to work?
As we all agree, "every student is different"; for every really good teacher, there must also be a really difficult student (and vice versa).

Education is a very difficult problem, with infinite exceptions.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33469415/ns ... on-reform/

I agree completely - Some students are destined to not make progress for a number of reasons, the responsibility never lies entirely with one party (or very rarely at least).

I only know of one way -- getting yelled at by a good teacher. For certain individuals and certain bad habits, maybe once or twice is enough.
For some people and some bad habits, it takes many times -- that's my experience. YMMV.

Substitute "shock treatments" in general (e.g. deprivation of pocket money, or telling someone bluntly how they appear to others) for "yelling", then maybe - if a teacher exists. But I have noticed many fragile egos on L19 who ask for help and then cry when a stronger player criticises. They really want praise not help - is that a bad habit or a (?perverse) result of modern education practices? I'm of a generation that expected teachers to yell and even administer corporal punishment, so I find it hard to judge some young peoples' reactions.

But for the purposes of L19 we have to assume a teacher is not available. What are the best tricks? FWIW a trick I have used in the past is to put X stones on the table in front of the board to make sure I remember to check X things before I play. But this does not work online, of course. Online, I think the only solution is to rig up a Heath-Robinson cattle prod that activates if you play too soon, but even that doesn't work with what I think is the worst habit of all - thinking for five minutes about a move and then instantly playing another move that we have looked at for all of two seconds.

John Fairbairn wrote:

I only know of one way -- getting yelled at by a good teacher. For certain individuals and certain bad habits, maybe once or twice is enough.
For some people and some bad habits, it takes many times -- that's my experience. YMMV.

Substitute "shock treatments" in general (e.g. deprivation of pocket money, or telling someone bluntly how they appear to others) for "yelling", then maybe - if a teacher exists. But I have noticed many fragile egos on L19 who ask for help and then cry when a stronger player criticises. They really want praise not help - is that a bad habit or a (?perverse) result of modern education practices? I'm of a generation that expected teachers to yell and even administer corporal punishment, so I find it hard to judge some young peoples' reactions.

Ah! That explains all those scars on your go board. They must be from where your teacher tried to rap your knuckles and missed.

We`ve veered a little OT perhaps, but I remember learning about the "critical sandwich" during my teacher training. Basically, you start off with a little praise, then deliver the criticism, and finish off with a bit more praise to leave the student feeling happy.

In my opinion, a teacher can be quite critical if the student really understands that the teacher is truly concerned with the student`s welfare and progress. In teaching music and language, I`ve always found it helps to show faith in your student. And as a student, I`ve always tried my best for teachers who believed in me, even when they heavily criticised my work.

I don`t think it`s necessary to go to the lengths of punishing yourself for moving too soon or thoughtlessly, but one thing I do find helpful is simply not touching the mouse or stones while I think. You might be interested to know that Cho Chikun was trained as a small boy to think with his arms crossed to deter impulsive play.

If I had to point to a meta-go weakness of my own, I would say that I am not very emotionally skilful. While I`m nowhere near as bad as I used to be, I still have a lot of work to do on it.

Tami wrote:We`ve veered a little OT perhaps, but I remember learning about the "critical sandwich" during my teacher training. Basically, you start off with a little praise, then deliver the criticism, and finish off with a bit more praise to leave the student feeling happy.

Even the behaviorists knew that positive reinforcement was more effective than negative reinforcement. That said, positive reinforcement does not equal praise. It means rewarding correct behavior or improvement.

Edit: On the difference between praise and reinforcement, the great linguist Otto Jespersen once observed that when a French boy asks his mother for an orange he gets an orange, but when a student in French class asks for an orange, he gets, "Bon dit!"

In my opinion, a teacher can be quite critical if the student really understands that the teacher is truly concerned with the student`s welfare and progress. In teaching music and language, I`ve always found it helps to show faith in your student. And as a student, I`ve always tried my best for teachers who believed in me, even when they heavily criticised my work.

Absolutely!

BTW, Tami, would you like to see another interesting ancient game?

when a student i French class asks for an orange, he gets, "Bon dit!"

Why not bien dit?

John Fairbairn wrote:

when a student i French class asks for an orange, he gets, "Bon dit!"

Why not bien dit?

Perhaps my memory is incorrect. And I do not know French, so I am guessing, but perhaps it is something like the difference between "Well said," and "Said correctly." (?)

Edit: Or maybe it is just, "Bon!"