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Big Brother Malkovich #5

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8271

Page 19 of 20

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:37 am
by Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 7 O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | C C O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conditional move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 8 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conditional move 2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 :b18: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O 2 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:42 am
by TIM82
I approve this move and both conditional moves. Go on :)

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:48 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 :b20: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 7 O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Updated the prisoners.

Edit: Approved via Joaz's hidden message.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:53 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Added trigger... now black to move.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:03 am
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X 6 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X 1 2 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is roughly what I expect, with a fight for the dango to follow. White could also capture the two stones directly, but I think this would damage the center group too much for white.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:55 pm
by Splatted
Edit: I forgot to wait for Joaz's approval so I've hidden my move

Conditional move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X 6 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


comment
I'll be brief because I have rsi.

My stone needs defending and this is the only direction that makes sense.

F9= 1 less liberty for me
less severe on black's weak stones
takes liberty from black group that remains strong either way
invites black to extend into weak white group

I really think 50 should have been white F10 but I can see that Tim couldn't have played that becuse it wouldn't correct my line of play. I could have played it at 52 but I was too focused on following up on tim's play.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:39 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
:scratch:

I'm still thinking...

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:05 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I approve. ( This is a complex position, so it took a while to decide. My comments are proportionately long, and may take a while to post. But I wanted to complete our move so the opponents can play. )

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:15 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Just to keep moves in sequence..

Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X 6 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Tim, it's your turn.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:15 am
by TIM82
Approved

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:20 pm
by Splatted
Skydyr?

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:59 pm
by skydyr
Figuring out the best way to attack here is complicated...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . e . , f . . . . , X g . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X c X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . h . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've roughly labeled the groups here, so I can refer to them.

A) This group is pretty strong. I can block off the side in gote.

B) No concerns about this group for the moment, though maybe there's an invasion or shoulder hit for white later.

C) This group is fairly strong, but could get cut off from the corner at some point. Important in splitting D.

D) This group is weak, but it has decent center access. I expect the rest of the middle game to revolve around it in some way or another.

E) Can link up to the corner easily if necessary. Vital in splitting white's weak group.

F) This group can link up to the right side without too much trouble at the moment, but if I attack D correctly, I may be able to engineer something against it.

G) Light and strong. May have to give up the side stone at some point.

H) There is aji here, but I don't think it's enough to invade quite yet. Otherwise, this group is fairly strong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d X . X . . . b . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | O O X X . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Counts:
Black: at least 20 on the bottom, 12+ on the top right, 15 top left, another 9 or so on the left if black seals, maybe more on the right and in the center. Total 47 +9.

White: 16 on the left, 27 on the right, maybe a couple on the top side. Total 45 + komi.

So, black is ahead by a bit, but not enough to declare a win, certainly. I think taking the left side once the endgame begins is vital, but the key is to prevent white from making more points while running with that center, group, or perhaps gaining something from it as black. I'm not sure how to deal with group F right now. I could lean on it to attack the center, but that strengthens white against the top right corner. I could attack white in the center as a lean against it, to take points on the top right perhaps?

I'm looking at the marked point to try and decide if it's sente to allow black to seal the top left off, though I don't think I should play it right away. Is just descending at D sente? I don't think it is. At some point, A3 is big and sente for black.

Looking at A, B, and C in the second diagram as possible attacking moves. I don't expect to be able to kill the white group, so how do I best profit from it? Maybe I should make big central moves that vaguely help enclose it and let white figure out how to save it while I take territory in the center.

I will think some more.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:20 am
by skydyr
I'll post a move soon. I've been too busy this week to think.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:25 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 :b21: :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | 1 O X 4 . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 5 O O X 6 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After looking at the three moves mentioned in the earlier post, as well as H12 and H13, I've decided that I like this move the best. If white tries to cut, the ladders work for black thanks to Joaz's earlier move at O6. It threatens to completely seal in one more move, at H9, and it doesn't give white easy shape. If black gets to play K14 at some point, it has a good relationship to this move... better than the other candidates.

This was a tough move to pick, so please comment on it.

Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
My choice has been between this and C8. Both are sente, so neither excludes the other. Thus...

I approve.
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Page 19 of 20

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