Life In 19x19

leichtloeslich: I'm sorry to hear that.

tentano: Unless someone has had an experience similar to leichtloeslich's
-- and I hope not -- it's extremely difficult to understand how he feels.

Ah come on, leichtloeslich is trollin' trollin' trollin'.

I'm only concerned about sandbaggers because of the rank system. If nobody had ranks (like in real life playing someone you don't know), it would be ok.
But with the rank system it's bad because
- it deflates ranks.
- abuses the handycap system.

On the other hand don't forget the sandbaggers we all love: strong players who put up videos of their sandbagged games while providing commentaries. Those are very helpful and I would be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that.

peti29 wrote:Ah come on, leichtloeslich is trollin' trollin' trollin'.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

@leichtloeslich - thanks for sharing the story; you told it well.

daal wrote:

peti29 wrote:Ah come on, leichtloeslich is trollin' trollin' trollin'.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

@leichtloeslich - thanks for sharing the story; you told it well.

Who knows? It serves to make a point, whether the story is real or not.

Sandbagging is people purposely losing games to keep their rating low. Strong players trying to win to raise the rank, or playing for fun in a random account are not sandbaggers. Yes, their real strength is not the strength of the account... But so what? They may have a hard time swimming through the system, or just ran through a dry run of loses, or stopped playing a while ago and just went back.

Also, at what difference level is it sandbagging? My slow KGS is at 3k now, and my blitz was hovering between 5 and 6, almost 3 stones off. I was having a bad spell at blitz, playing stupid. I just won 3 straight without much opposition (I didn't play really well, but pulled off a few tactical moves that had little counter in two of them, my opponents timed out, in the other I won by 15 points without much effort either.) Was it sandbagging? Just yesterday and the day before I was losing to players this level, even though I shouldn't (or not that often, statistically.)

DrStraw wrote:I have often thought that sandbaggers are people who lack confidence in themselves and have to proves themselves anyway they can.

To me, sandbaggers and the people who whine about sandbaggers - they are exactly the same coin, just different sides. If anybody wants to make a psychological profile of one, the same profile will most likely apply to the other. How's that for controversy?

PS>
Every beginner (or any player, pretty much ) I ever met wants to play against a pro. They will lose... yet they yearn to play against such a player. Well - when they get sandbagged by a much stronger player, its pretty much the same. They lose, and often they have no clue why. Just like they would against the pro. I have seen players line up and pay good money to get clobbered by a pro in a simul = lose without knowing why.

Bottom line - you meet a sandbagger, try to learn from him/her. If you don't feel like learning, resign and move on, why waste time. What's the big deal?

Sandbaggers are people not obsessed with their rank, so they end with a higher strength per rank ratio than others due to using the same account when drinking, tired, at 3 A.M., while a cat is walking over the keyboard or whatever.

I've never played someone who I thought was sandbagging. Sometimes my opponent is stronger than me. Losing to stronger players is how you improve. Honestly I never really think about it beyond that.

Winning feels good, and losing feels bad. I know some people say they enjoy the game the exact same amount win or lose, but I don't believe them. If you get invested in a game of go, then you care about the outcome.

Special shout-out to blackmage, who made an account on these forums specifically to tell us to poke him in the eye. Welcome, if we ever play in person I'll be sure to bring a sharp stick

RBerenguel wrote:Sandbagging is people purposely losing games to keep their rating low.

This.

If they win, then their ranks will update and they'll no longer be sandbaggers.

emeraldemon wrote:Special shout-out to blackmage, who made an account on these forums specifically to tell us to poke him in the eye. Welcome, if we ever play in person I'll be sure to bring a sharp stick

Don't forget to bring a healer for refusing to heal him because he's evil. Also a fighter to make him explode, because it's funny. You can have the fighter poke his eyes with a stick too, if you tell him that the stick will turn into a swordchuk.

Bantari wrote:

DrStraw wrote:I have often thought that sandbaggers are people who lack confidence in themselves and have to proves themselves anyway they can.

To me, sandbaggers and the people who whine about sandbaggers - they are exactly the same coin, just different sides. If anybody wants to make a psychological profile of one, the same profile will most likely apply to the other. How's that for controversy?

PS>
Every beginner (or any player, pretty much ) I ever met wants to play against a pro. They will lose... yet they yearn to play against such a player. Well - when they get sandbagged by a much stronger player, its pretty much the same. They lose, and often they have no clue why. Just like they would against the pro. I have seen players line up and pay good money to get clobbered by a pro in a simul = lose without knowing why.

Bottom line - you meet a sandbagger, try to learn from him/her. If you don't feel like learning, resign and move on, why waste time. What's the big deal?

This is a good comment.

Video A: 2 monkeys

Video B: wrestling

Suppose Mary's true level is about 5 kyu, and Joe's true level is about 3 dan.
If Mary wants to play a pro, it's her choice.
She knows ahead of time someone is pro, and it is she who chooses to pay for the lesson.
If she wants to play someone around her own level, it's her choice.

I have some accounts a lot weaker than my peak strength.

Say Joe has a 5-kyu account, for whatever reasons.
If Mary is paired up with Joe, she sees his 5-kyu account; she does not know his true level is 3 dan.
But Joe does: he knows on this day, his level is still 3 dan, and he can also see her 5-kyu rating.
He now has a choice: to disclose this information, or not.
He can ask her, "I'm really about 3 dan. This 5-kyu rating is not my true level. Would you still like to play me ?"
And let her choose.
If he does not tell her, he is hiding this information and mis-representing himself, to her.
He is not letting her choose. He is choosing for her. In Go, he's forcing himself on her.

If there were no ratings in this world -- like in an Open division --
then everyone knows their opponent's level is like a box of chocolates; and that's fine.

But we do have ratings. And there are people like Joe who repeatedly mis-represent themselves.

Bottom line - you meet a sandbagger, try to learn from him/her.
If you don't feel like learning, resign and move on, why waste time. What's the big deal?

This is like saying a physiologically normal person jumps into disability wrestling matches --
repeatedly, over and over again, mis-representing himself as disabled and crushing his opponents --
and you tell the disabled wrestlers,
"Hey, just learn something from that guy, or move on. What's the big deal ? "

Yes, we could just watch people jump in line, watch people bully others,
keep our mouth shut, and "move on". What's the big deal ?
Others in this thread have said, what's wrong with sandbagging ?
It's not illegal. Morals, schmorals. A 3 dan hiding behind a 5-kyu rating and crushing his opponents, repeatedly.
Hey, it's just a game, Joe is having fun, what's wrong with that ?

If you don't understand Videos A and B,
if you really don't see the difference between Mary choosing to pay a pro,
versus her getting sandbagged by Joe, well, enjoy your life.

And, why would I want to learn from people like Joe.

I really feel Ed has a point here. A lot of sandbaggers aren't demonstrating awesome superior play. They will deliberately kick you in the insecurity with moves which would never work against someone their own level.

You only really learn what it's like to be taken in by trick moves from such players.

MAYBE you will eventually learn how to punish those tricks, but it will do very little to seriously raise your rank.

I'm serious about my previous comment. I'm not saying that deliberate, intentionally deceptive sandbagging don't exist. To the extent that it does it is unsportsmanlike, but I do think the numbers are exaggerated by players looking in the wrong places to explain their own losses. I've had, by now, hundreds of games reviewed by strong amateurs and pros and not once have I been told, "well, it's okay that you lost this because your opponent is obviously a sandbagger" or something to that effect. Not once. And I'm sure those teachers knew or suspected something was fishy in some cases. But that's not the point. The point is there is always something I could have done better. If you get into your head that your opponent might be a sandbagger then you'll be chasing ghosts for the rest of your life.

EdLee wrote:Suppose Mary's true level is about 5 kyu, and Joe's true level is about 3 dan.
If Mary wants to play a pro, it's her choice.
She knows ahead of time someone is pro, and it is she who chooses to pay for the lesson.
If she wants to play someone around her own level, it's her choice.

Then why does she keep playing? Resign, and move on - play somebody else, around her level.

What you say is all true.

My point is that people who get sandbagged waste time twofold:
1. First they keep continuing the game even long after they realized they've been had... why?
2. And then they keep wasting time and energy getting angry about it, complaining about it, writing posts about it, and whatnot... instead of finding back their balance and having a good game with somebody else. Its not productive, and makes almost as little sense as sandbagging.

But whatever rocks your boat, mate.

PS>
You will not eradicate all evil in the world. Jerks are out there, and so are sandbaggers. Keep playing, keep whining, keep complaining - is playing into their hands. This thread started as a challenge to create a psychological profile of a sandbagger. I feel they are people who not only get a kick out of easy win, but also enjoy seeing you squirm. By making big issue out of it, you are playing right into their hands. I can see how they see back and enjoy making you so angry and causing you to waste hours on whining and complaining. But what can you really do.

You can keep complaining and letting it ruin your day - and this is an interesting psychological study by itself as well.

Bottom line is - sandbaggers happen. It is very unfortunate, but such is life. All in all, its one of the extremely minor nuisances, hardly worth fussing over, imho.

The only real solution, if you are serious about finding one, is found not inside a sandbagger, but inside yourself. Don't let it bother you, and you have already won. Or get upset and you are handing the sandbagger what he wants on a silver platter. That's all there is to it.

I have said similar things about escapers in the past, and I firmly believe it is true for both.

Bantari wrote:Sandbaggers ... [are an] extremely minor [nuisance], hardly worth fussing over, imho.

(a) Sandbaggers are a waste of time. (paraphrased)

Bantari wrote:People who...[write] posts about it [are]...wasting time

(b) People who write about sandbaggers are wasting time. (paraphrased)

(c) So, you promptly wrote almost 500 words (posts 35 & 44).
And that, magically, is neither a waste of time nor hypocritical.


Yea, whatever rocks your boat.