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#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11394

Page 3 of 7

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:16 pm
by Uberdude
Well, we were talking about a joseki which can't happen anymore in this corner (as you played f5), but maybe it could happen in those other 4-4 corners...

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:45 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Joaz Banbeck almost wrote:... he has few reasonable options but to play...like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...
amatterof almost wrote:...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 4 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...
I thought that he had to take the corner.

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

But, as I said earlier, I'm out of my book.

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:25 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let us assume that I do something moderately aggressive, that restricts his growing group. Even then, he can invade

I can block this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . O . O . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and my lower left group is meaningless, maybe even in danger.

Or I can block this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . O . O . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
..and he is in a better position than the joseki because his worst weak spot is now protected.

He can take it profitably if I let him, and after all, it is a corner, so I should get it for myself.

But then, he has sente. What is the worst that he can do?

He probably has to make some sort of base for his group.

He can't go as far as N3:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So the most he can do is this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...and then I get the natural play at 14.

Or, if he tenukis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 3 elsewhere
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:21 am
by amatterof
For observers:
I've gone through at least 3 stages of reactions to :b12:.

Stage 1 (Yay!)
My first thought on seeing :b12: was "What strange shape!" Because strange shape, especially early in a game, is usually a sign of a mistake, I considered this an indication that I was starting to catch up from the initial handicap. For about 15 seconds, I was happy.

Stage 2 (All is lost!)
Then I looked at :b12: more and realized that it actually does a lot. First, it completely eliminates all of the corner aji. Second, it also makes the slide to B4 no longer sente. That means there's less aji in the white C6 stone. And with less aji in C6, a black move at D7 looks like it might make a very large and very secure territory. Lastly, :b12: starts staring pretty menacingly at the G3 peep.

At this point, I started looking at what my mistake must have been. I thought perhaps that :w11: should have been at G6 instead, since that would restore at bit more aji to C6. For about 20-30 minutes I was mad at myself for messing up so early and wondering how I was going to claw my way back.

(More on G3 and G6 below)

Stage 3 (Keep going)
Next, I remembered my final prediction diagram in my last post, and realized that this position is not really much different from that one. The differences are:
  • Black's corner is smaller
  • White hasn't fixed his shape with G3
  • The B4 slide is no longer sente
Since I said I was OK with White in that position, why am I not OK with White here too? In that diagram, I had confidently written "Will Black have time to come to [D7]?" and it's still the case here that Black's corner only looks impressive if he later plays this gote (reverse-sente-ish?) move.

The idea that this position could be locally even is something I remember really struggling to grasp as an SDK. It looks like all White has is a few scattered stones on the bottom, while Black is securing point after point in the corner. But, in fact, White has gotten significant compensation, including the shimari in the upper left and sente.

The only reason I think the position looks a bit scary to me is that stupid tengen stone. If it wasn't there, I would be strongly considering pulling out C6 now. But then I have to remember that it's still very early in a handicap game, so of course I feel like I'm slightly trailing. Interestingly, I now mentally regard the tengen stone as Black's handicap stone, rather than one of the corners. Once we're a bit farther along in the fuseki (so that it isn't cheating), I want to make a note to look and see if there are any professional games where White played a shimari with :w2: and :w4:, leaving 3 corners for Black. It seems like a strange but conceivable strategy, and it's effectively the one I guess I've employed here if we consider the tengen stone to be the handicap stone.

Notes on G3
Finally, a few words about the G3 peep. Before :b12:, I was struggling to come up with a good answer to this peep, because I wanted to make sure I still left aji in the corner. Thus, my two options were:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm12
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X X O . .
$$ | . . . X . O a O .
$$ | . . . . . b B . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]
My first instinct was B, but there's actually a possible trick there that White can fall into.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black takes the center
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . 4 6 .
$$ | . . . . X X O 5 .
$$ | . . . X . O 2 O .
$$ | . . . . . 1 B . .
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]
Now :b2: is a wonderful sacrifice allowing Black to seal off the center and make his tengen stone shine.

However, now that Black has played C3, there's very little point in keeping an eye on the corner, which means that I can consider this response to continue building up the bottom:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm12
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . a b .
$$ | . . . . X X O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . O .
$$ | . . 1 . . . B W .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]
There is still an annoying defect at A (which makes me still wonder if :w11: wasn't a mistake and should be here), but I can at least respond at B now, since the F4 stone has lost a lot of its value and letting Black cut it off isn't the worst thing in the world at this early stage.

In short, maybe :w11: was a mistake, and maybe :b12: is the punishment. Or maybe they're both mistakes. I don't know. Can someone call up Iyama Yuta and ask?

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:04 am
by Uberdude
@amatterof
So you didn't think about taking 3-3 for yourself last move then? That's a common idea with double approaches.

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:21 am
by amatterof
@Uberdude:
I considered it very briefly, but instinctively thought that if I was going to invade, it would have been better not to have made the marked exchange first. I didn't play these out until now, but here are two examples:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Example 1: :w5:, :w9:, or :b10: could be A
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 2 X . O 4 0 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 3 . 9 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Example 2: White can play A, so it's probably ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But maybe you're thinking of this complicated idea:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Complicated
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O b . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c 9 B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 5 O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 1 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The marked exchange means Black gets to play atari at :b6:, but after White at A, White does end up nicely thick. But what if :b10: is at B? The C9 stone is an annoying ladder breaker.
Even :b10: at c followed by b and d looks tricky. Is there a ko in the corner? (I looked at a closely related variation for awhile while studying the G3 peep before :b12:).

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:51 am
by amatterof
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The first question I had to ask myself was whether there's anything more I want to do locally in the lower left. For instance, I could:
  • Fix my shape with G3
  • Build more influence/a wall with G6 or G7
  • Activate C6
None of these seem very appealing right now. Fixing my shape with G3 is gote and feels slow. Building a wall with G6 or G7 is nice, but Black will almost certainly take the opportunity to play D7 if I do. And activating C6 seems like I'm begging to be attacked, when even the G5 stones aren't settled.

However, one thing I spent a lot of time thinking about was whether there is some move I can play with C6 that means Black can no longer kill it as cleanly. In other words, before leaving C6, I want to see if there's a way to increase its aji. I looked at the following moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The problem with A, B and C is that they both tend to prompt moves that will later allow Black to capture C6 on an even bigger scale after White tenukis now:
  • For A, Black likely plays F7 or E8, followed by the other one.
  • For B, Black likely plays D9, followed by E8
  • For C, Black likely plays E9, followed by F8
In other words, if I'm going to tenuki anyway, I shouldn't give Black any of these helping moves. D was the only one that looked remotely interesting. Black then plays D7, and there is lots of fun aji remaining around C8. Furthermore, Black's follow-up killing move here is D8, which is slower and no bigger than originally.

I started gearing up to play D, but then realized that (1) while there is still a lot of aji around C8 after this exchange, there is decidedly less aji than there currently is; (2) I can still play at D after Black plays D7; and (3) (most importantly), I may want to provoke Black D7 in a different way later on, such as with G6 or G7 to develop the bottom, or with something around C11 to develop the top. There's no need to commit to a particular path before I know what I want.

So, if I'm going to tenuki, there are 3 options that come to mind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A play at A returns to my original plan of developing the top. B and C, however, are the kind of directional questions with which I still struggle. B seems natural, and if Black calmly extends, I can cash in nicely on the bottom.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , ? ? . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . ? . . 1 . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If Black pincers, this time I'm more torn about what to do. The G5 stones are strong enough (especially if I get G3), that I'm not too worried about Black developing something if I take the corner. But doesn't the fact that I'm happy to give Black the bottom seem to suggest that I'm playing in the wrong direction with B in the first place? Or, maybe my direction is correct and it just means this is a good spot to jump out and fight back against a pincer, especially since I can play G6/G7 as a possible dual threat then?

I'm leaning towards the second idea, and this corner feels slightly urgent (unlike A) since G5 isn't perfectly settled, so I'm picking B.

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:14 am
by Joaz Banbeck
:o

I'm totally confused by my opponent's play. He has only made seven moves, and three of them make no sense to me. Two of those three moves are the last two.

1) C14 seems to be too loose for solid territory as C15 would have been, but it is not quite far enough to prevent a two-space extension for my stone at C9.

2) TTBOMR, he had to invade at C3. I can't claim to understand this. It is just what I recall from my joseki books.

3) His most recent extension seems to be an overplay.

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:20 am
by Uberdude
@Joaz
Does it not make sense that your opponent may overplay or over-extend in a handicap game? You may think his moves are bad, but for them to make no sense to you would require you to be rather stupid, which you don't seem to be. ;-) I mean number 2, he defended a cut. Yeah 3-3 was also possible for sure (but really you have this in joseki books?), but doesn't defending a cut make some sense? Or were you exaggerating for effect?

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:47 am
by Joaz Banbeck
@Uberdude and observers:
Uberdude wrote:@Joaz
Does it not make sense that your opponent may overplay or over-extend in a handicap game? You may think his moves are bad, but for them to make no sense to you would require you to be rather stupid, which you don't seem to be. ;-)
Of course, white should probably overplay a bit in a handicap game. But this is only two stones. I could understand a slight overplay at N3, but O3 seems fit for a five-stone handicap.

And note that I have not said that I they are bad. I have said that I don't understand them.
When playing a stronger player I have to assume that he has some deeper purpose that is not immediately obvious to me.


Here is my best guess at what he is planning to do.

If I pincer, he runs, and I must extend from the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then he activates C6 with something like :w4:. I'm not sure exactly where, but he does something in that general area. I reply with :b5: someplace, then he extends with :w6:.

Eventually, he caps my invading stone and goes for a large scale attack:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 8 c . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , 1 . a b . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Of course, as I have drawn it, black seems to get out with a-b-c and harasses white's O-file stones. But this is just a general plan.


Addendum: The more I look at G7, the more it seems to be the proper direction for the white group. I have put it - or something in the general area like F8 - on my list of moves to make when I have sente.

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:22 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Once I decide to pincer, this is the only reasonable play. The difficult question is how to play when he extends: aggressive with Q6 or territorial with R6.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 4 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:27 pm
by Loons
This board reminds me of my own advice on 2H.

Play exactly as you would even.

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:53 pm
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( For beginners. ) My opinions, only --
The bottom :white: stones don't seem a good combination.
The tengen :black: stone is at a nice place.
The top center area is big.
No hurry, just take cash and fix all aji with :b1: .
Loons wrote:Play exactly as you would even.
I agree; in an H2 game --
As :white: , I cannot get 2 corners,
so I play almost exactly the same as even.
As :black: , I suddenly get 3 corners,
so I play almost exactly the same as even. :)

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm
by Bill Spight
Joaz Banbeck wrote::o

I'm totally confused by my opponent's play. He has only made seven moves, and three of them make no sense to me. Two of those three moves are the last two.

1) C14 seems to be too loose for solid territory as C15 would have been, but it is not quite far enough to prevent a two-space extension for my stone at C9.
It is normal in the fuseki to leave a two space extension for either player. If Black attaches to the C-06 stone, for instance, White has the option of extending to C-11 as part of sacrificing that stone.
2) TTBOMR, he had to invade at C3. I can't claim to understand this. It is just what I recall from my joseki books.
It seems to me that White is countering Black's tengen stone ( :b6: ). Jumping into the corner allows Black to build a wall that works with :b6:, and the hanging connection avoids that. That also explains the double approach on the 4th line. Giving up the corner invasion is a cost, but White's play is consistent.
3) His most recent extension seems to be an overplay.
When giving a handicap White almost has to play thinly. Back in the days when pros gave handicaps to other pros in serious play, you could often see that quite early in the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In fact, the White framework in this diagram is reminiscent of old time pro-pro handicap games. (Not that amatterof planned to play that way. I might have, though. ;) See one of Yoda's recent games against CrazyStone for an example.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Tewari
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Suppose that play had gone that way, however. Would you, as Black, now play at :b16:, risking :w17:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Tewari
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 4 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Yet Joaz is playing for just that position, reached by transposition. I think that this represents a genuine difference in the two players' assessments of the strength of the White hanging connection. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Keima
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
BTW, I would have strongly considered :b14:. It prevents the White jump and works with the tengen stone.

That keima was characteristic of the New Fuseki. But actually it appears in the oldest game records that we have, from China. :)

Edit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 One space high pincer
$$ --------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 1 . a . 4 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I would also have considered the one space high pincer, which leaves room for an extension to "a". :)

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:15 pm
by EdLee
Hi Bill :)
How do you see the pros and cons of
the :black: (a) keima, versus the attach :b1: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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