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Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:06 pm
by Bantari
RobertJasiek wrote:Sounds fair enough, but you know the consequence of expecting, also in informal discussion, everybody everywhere to write "usually correct", "usually punishes" etc. E.g., you yourself would have to replace "makes almost sente" by something like "depending on the global positional context can make an immediate sente or prepares a severe follow-up", "threatens to separate" by "usually threatens to separate", "provides one such global position" by "it can be argued that it is such a global position" etc. Do you really want everybody to apply the same precision in informal texts I apply to formal definitions? Great! :)
Words are there to be used, in moderation. ;)

Having said that, there is a huge difference between saying "this is correct" and "this looks better to me".

The former looks and sounds conceited, irritatingly authoritative, almost sanctimonious, and often baseless - since none of us really know what "correct" is. Not even the pros, especially in more complex positions. Otherwise this game would have been solved and boring... and certainly without many surprises. Even when pros use words like "correct", I often cringe, having seen some of those "correct" moves being then in turn criticized and rejected by other pros as years go by and fashions change.

The latter is much more palatable, and shows some nice character traits, like modesty and constraint. Not to mention a little more realistic evaluation of one's own abilities, which - lets face it - are not really all that hot, or we would all be able to write the honorific "Honinbo" by our names.

PS>
Reminds me of this one chapter in Yoshiteru's book (Dramatic Moments), where several pros were given the same position to evaluate, and each was very sure that there was only one "correct" move. The trouble was - each pro insisted it was a completely different move. Made an huge impression on me, and illustrated how very little we know about Go. Certainly not enough to willy-nilly blanket-label moves as "correct", especially in a more global sense, no matter what theories we come up with.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:17 pm
by Bantari
RobertJasiek wrote:
Bki wrote:White coming back to solve the problem is a win in itself.
It can easily be an inefficient move (loss in the global context) because White plays two moves where he could have settled the connection and life by just one move.
Possibly, but not necessarily.
The extension also influenced Black moves, which would surely be different if the extension was narrower. This needs to be calculated into the overall win/loss ratio for such positions. Part of that difficulty lies in that the game could have moved along completely different path if this extension were different. Maybe White did not like this particular path, maybe that was a path which White knew suited Black's style better, or whatever...

To bring it down to a concrete example - a move which works better against Takemiya might be a losing move against Kato, and vice versa.
Or something like that.

I think there is a lot in Go (as a competitive game) which is not as black-and-white as you seem to suggest.
And it is good so, since it shows the depth of the game, which is very hard to reduce to strict rules and equations.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:49 pm
by John Fairbairn
It is impressive that enough old commentaries exist to allow citation of a commentary on a related game, thanks John!
Robert: I have spent years trying to tell you that there's a massive amount of stuff available. Throughout the 20s and 30s every Oteai got a long commentary, very often from Shusai. Nowadays all the space goes on variation diagrams. In those days readers had hair on their chest - even the women - and could read commentaries full of Black A, White B etc based on diagrams with 100 or more moves.

On top of that, because pros were not as spoilt as they are now, they did almost all the work of commenting and article writing themselves. So all the articles are from the horse's mouth, and not the other end.
It remains unclear why the 4-space extension would given White "richer possibilities". Different possibilities for sure, but why richer? Black's richer invasion possibilities are hardly discussed.
You've got to do two things: one is not to over-analyse and the other is to read what is written. The commentary said it was the game that got richer possibilities, i.e. both players, not B or W.

As to "richer" it just means a wider variety. Don't read too much into it.

On top of that, it is just my top-of-the head choice for a Japanese word, and may not be the best choice. The word in question is "hiroi", which usually means "wide", but that doesn't fit here. It's a very common word and you must have come across it many times in English translations, but probably didn't notice it much because it would often be (mis)translated as "wide". I have discussed it a bit in the Shuei game commentaries, but it needs (dare I say it) wider exposure.

Although common in commentary texts, hiroi is rare in books and articles. I think I have seen only one book that discusses part of it, maybe by O Meien but I've forgotten. It's like amashi, also very common in commentaries but rarely discussed in depth. The most I've seen on that is as part of articles, e.g. on technical terms.

I think there's a good reason for that, but I am now entering the realms of speculation. The reason is that these are concepts that can only be sensibly discussed once you know all the basics inside out, and so can apply only above about 6-dan amateur. And pros rarely write for other pros. In fact, I deduce that, leaving aside physical and psychological improvements and the gradual build-up of experience and keeping up to date, these two things are the most important aspects a low-dan pro learns as he moves up the dans. Nowadays, however, dealing with a hiroi game is probably more noticeable because weaker players have more or less learned to avoid suffering amashi strategies, and so we see fewer example than in the past, with the recurring exception of that caricature of amashi, the one-weak-group strategy.

Hiroi essentially describes a game that is rich with (= full of) possibilities. It means a game with a lot going on. However, it does not mean mayhem. Players who play a hiroi game have to have that an attribute similar to the controlled aggression taught to London bus drivers and F1 drivers, or to the ability to go to the limit but not beyond that top rock climbers have. By its nature such a game is likely to benefit a stronger and/or more experienced player - typically White in no-komi days.

Your remark about White playing hamete in no-komi days is a bad misuse or misunderstanding of the word. A pro only extremely rarely tries to trap a fellow pro with a trick move. However, he will very often use hiroi moves.

Both hiroi and amashi strategies are used even in komi games, though as I said actually achieving amashi is quite nowadays.

For an amateur to learn to play hiroi moves is difficult not just because of the need to master the basics first. Another factor is that he may not get to play stronger players enough, either on level terms or giving a handicap. But in no-komi days this was common. At B-W-B handicap, a weaker player got to play a stronger player with White and no komi in one out of three games. This was a marvellous opportunity to challenge him to a hiroi or amashi game, and it's part of the reason that players like Kato Shin believed that no-komi go should have been retained. The Japanese have a lovely way of describing this, borrowed from sumo wrestling. They refer to it as "borrowing the chest" of a stronger person so they can practise pummelling him. This term is fairly common in go, but for obvious reasons it usually can refer only to pros.

Again, don't try and over-analyse any of that. I've typed it with one eye and two ears on the TV as the general election results come through, and it may all be gibberish, but I'm confident there will be a grain of truth somewhere.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:48 pm
by RobertJasiek
Could hiroi be translated as "going all out" with a move or strategy?

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:19 am
by John Fairbairn
Could hiroi be translated as "going all out" with a move or strategy?
Nowhere close. I still recommend starting with "rich in possibilities", and bear in mind that a good, experienced player can choose a simple option out of all those possibilities. He's just given himself more options (and if you want to be cynical, he's given the opponent more ways to go wrong.)

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:21 am
by Elom
John Fairbairn wrote:
Could hiroi be translated as "going all out" with a move or strategy?
Nowhere close. I still recommend starting with "rich in possibilities", and bear in mind that a good, experienced player can choose a simple option out of all those possibilities. He's just given himself more options (and if you want to be cynical, he's given the opponent more ways to go wrong.)
Would "Depth"/"This move has a deep meaning"/"It's meanings lie far down in the tree", be close to a sister to the word "Hiroi". It seems as if it means that when pros are behind, they do what An 8p calls "making the game more complicated", by increasing the width of the game tree with "Hiroi" moves?

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:37 am
by John Fairbairn
Would "Depth"/"This move has a deep meaning"/"It's meanings lie far down in the tree", be close to a sister to the word "Hiroi". It seems as if it means that when pros are behind, they do what An 8p calls "making the game more complicated", by increasing the width of the game tree with "Hiroi" moves?
I know what you mean and have sympathy with the point, but hiroi is used even when you are not behind, so it is not the same kind of complication (i.e. as I said before it does not lead to mayhem). Also, "deep" just introduces the perennial problem of using a word that has too may other uses and nuances. Note also that the opposite of hiroi is legitimately used in similar circumstances (semai), as of shutting the game down, but it would seem odd to use "shallow" about go strategy.

As an indicator that scale does not really come into it, could we perhaps argue that small ball in baseball, which seeks to eke out runs by creating a richer set of possibilities than just going for the fences every time, is "hiroi"?

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:46 am
by quantumf
Thanks John. I think I understand what you're talking about, and I think any player who has played white in handicap games will probably understand it too. We may not play "hiroi" moves as you describe, but we tend to complicate the game (leaving it richer in possibilities) in many ways, by, for example, playing tenuki more often than we would tend to do in even games. I would not call these hamete, as they are not trick moves, we just leave situations less resolved, confident that our extra skills or experience will help us eventually prevail. You stress the point about mayhem - I don't know that I understand the practical difference between mayhem (or chaos) and complicated, but I think I agree with you - by complicated I mean more possibilities available, and more opportunities (for the opponent) to pick a faulty path or suboptimal move.

In fact this should help our normal games, as you describe with the chest analogy, if only we can resist the urge to thrash out local situations to their bitter end in our even games (speaking for myself, that is).

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:29 am
by RobertJasiek
So horoi seems to be "(strategy of) creating possibilities". If so, it is not special for professional players.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:39 am
by John Fairbairn
So horoi seems to be "(strategy of) creating possibilities". If so, it is not special for professional players.
No. It is more refined than that. It does not include ajitsuke or probes or miai or other ways of creating possibilities. These are essentially local but hiroi is not limiting.

It is not specific to pros but you do need to be a pro to be able to make effective use of it, more so than with the above.

And hiroi is an adjective.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:13 am
by RobertJasiek
Thank you! Now we know at least roughly what to look for.

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:45 am
by John Fairbairn
Today I came across two articles side by side which refer to this thread's joseki, repeated below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a c . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 b . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . d . .
$$ | . . 4 2 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 3 5 . 7 . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
The first was on "Even-game josekis" by Honinbo Shusai. His first reference to White 8 was that it was the "usual" move (and he also remarks that Black 7 is a thick move that allows him to focus on the right side). This thread has no quibble with that. In his second reference he gave this joseki as part of the larger position below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Practical example
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . b . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Here he says that the three-space extension shown may the correct move locally but, given the disposition of the lower right here, that would allow Black make a perfect move by getting first to 'a', which implies a pincer at 'b'. Therefore White will "rather often" play at 'a' first before extending on the side. In that case, if White can then still extend on the left side it will be much bigger for him to play at 'c'. But if White plays the wider extension at 'c' first and then ignores a subsequent Black 'a', he has to accept that Black has the threat of a severe invasion at 'd'.

Again I think the posters on this thread will have no quibble with any of that. However, there are implications to take note of. (This is my own comment now.) One is that if White extends before playing the knight's move, he is clearly imposing on himself a strategy in which he would like to get to 'a' himself or in which he hopes to remain sanguine if Black gets there first. Equally clearly, getting to 'a' for both players is more important if the extension is wider, and this is exactly what Kitani said, you may recall. So again, I think we are all on common ground. Another implication, for the wide extension only, is that as a Black play at 'a' threatens invasion, it might seem that White has to have a defence prepared. If so, where? In fact, he almost never defends at all. Although we only have a few games to go on, leaving this three-stone wall weak by tenuki-ing is a normal strategy, and is the subject of the second article, by Segoe Kensaku. I would expect some readers not to be very familiar with that strategy, but the classic example of leaving a three-stone wall as bait can be seen in Game 1 of the Kamakura ten-game match.

That's all by way of recap. But it got me thinking about what we mean by 'local' and what do we really imply when we say a joseki choice depends on the local game. To put it another, simplistic, way: how often does a joseki depend on the larger position?

This example may or may not give an accurate picture but FWIW here are some figures. GoGoD has 269 games with this joseki up to Black 7. The joseki move 8 appeared in only 81 cases. Is this a hint that full-board considerations overrode the locally standard move 188 times? (Not to mention that full-board considerations may have also been a big factor in choosing the standard move.)

The other valid extensions ('a', 'b' and 'c' in the first diagram) account for 70 cases. The knight's move 'a' by White, instead of extending, occurs 41 times, thus confirming what Shusai said. That leaves a total of 77 cases where White tenuki-ed - almost as common as the standard joseki move and so justifying Segoe's treatment of this topic. although obviously we cannot say that every instance turned into a bait strategy.

Kitani's point is also borne out by the figures. Where White made the three-point extension (8) Black chose to play the knight's move more often than White (22 to 16 cases), but with the 4-space extension White was rather keener to get there first and the split was 9-9 (with moves other than the knight's move chosen 7 times).

None of this proves very much, but one thing it does point to, I think, is how well the pros were on top of the data. Recall that this was well before any large-scale dictionary of josekis existed, and sets of collected games were still rare. In fact, published games of any kind were hard to keep track of, being often published only locally in regional newspapers. Yet the three pros mentioned here all made general observations that accord very well with database data. Impressive!

Re: Book reference for the ideal distance from a wall?

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:40 pm
by RobertJasiek
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . d . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
d is not the only invasion point. An alternative is shown; Easy Learning Joseki, p. 24 suggests these sample continuations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var. 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . 7 X 1 8 . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . X . .
$$ | . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var. 2, a = 10 etc.
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . d . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 e 6 . . . . .
$$ | 8 3 O g f . . . .
$$ | . 5 1 2 . . . . .
$$ | 7 . X O . . . . .
$$ | . X O X c . . . .
$$ | b 9 O . . . X . .
$$ | . a O O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var. 3
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X 4 5 . . .
$$ | . 6 . . . 7 X . .
$$ | . 8 O O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var. 4, a = 10 etc.
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 O 9 . . . . .
$$ | g . e 1 . f . . .
$$ | . 8 X 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . c 7 6 d . . .
$$ | . a . . . . X . .
$$ | . b O O O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
White f can also create a ko.