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Cele's try to create controlled complexity

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Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:23 am
by skydyr
Celebrir wrote:
skydyr wrote:In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.
"LL" corner means living corner ? The problem was more that both of his groups were stable while my center group was not. At least that is how it was played in the game :roll:
LL is lower left. Since black had the 4-4 and white had nothing local, white's left side prospects with his stone aren't spectacular.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:01 am
by Celebrir
Hi everyone! After some busy time where I only played slow games on ogs, I finally have a little bit more time now again :)

I watched some professional games on http://www.tvbaduk.com and some subbed on https://www.youtube.com/user/sundaygolessons (which I can highly recommend). Other than that I only played and reviewed for training. Here are two of the better games:

This was a really intresting game because we both first had big moyos and then did a lot of reduction work. There are a lot of places where I found the missing point when I reviewed but I would be intrested in what you think the biggest mistakes were.

In this game i underestimated the power of a 3-3 shimari but barely pulled out the win. There were some intresting exchanges here.
When I finally started to play games with normal time controls again, I realised that the ranking seems to be lower. At least I have the feeling it is much easier to be succesful. Is that only me or something general? However, there was one situation I have a question about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.1 How to attack
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b and c:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.2 [i]a[/i] in 8.1
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . 5 1 2 8 O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This doesn't seem good if :w9: is neccassary to avoid a counterattack which I feel it is. Or am I wrong?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.3 [i]b[/i] in 8.1
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 1 7 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . 9 8 4 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , 0 O X 5 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O 6 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seems a very hard to fight situation as well. Of course there is another variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.4 Passive [i]b[/i] in 8.1
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . 7 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But I wonder whether this is to passive.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.5 [i]c[/i] in 8.1
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 9 1 2 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . 7 6 4 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X 0 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.6 Continuation of 8.5
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 9 . . 6 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . 0 8 7 5 2 O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . 4 3 O X X O 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is the best aggressive sequence I can find and the actual game. However, both groups managed to survive and I'm wondering whether the more passive 8.4 is better. However, you may notice that B's bottom right managed to escape, but is not yet fully alive. Due to an in my opinion overplay I managed to catch it later.If you're intrested, here is the full game:

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:08 pm
by Charles Matthews
Celebrir wrote:However, there was one situation I have a question about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.1 How to attack
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b and c:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W My thought
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . 1 . q . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushed up, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:09 pm
by Charles Matthews
Charles Matthews wrote:
Celebrir wrote:However, there was one situation I have a question about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 8.1 How to attack
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b and c:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W My thought
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:35 am
by Celebrir
Charles Matthews wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W My thought
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.
That's for sure something I should have considered and try to consider more in the feature, thank you! However, I'm not sure how it continues here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.7 Result of indirection?
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 3 . . . . 8 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 1 4 5 . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X 2 . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Would it continue like this? To me it feels like both groups can escape quite easily and hard to double attack because they can both escape into different directions

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:47 am
by Charles Matthews
Celebrir wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W My thought
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.
That's for sure something I should have considered and try to consider more in the feature, thank you! However, I'm not sure how it continues here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.7 Result of indirection?
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 3 . . . . 8 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 1 4 5 . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X 2 . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Would it continue like this? To me it feels like both groups can escape quite easily and hard to double attack because they can both escape into different directions
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (1)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In this position, it seems to me, Black is already stretched. For example, White can now play at a, and not worry too much.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (2)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, the cut with :w5: here feels very different from the immediate cut you showed. The corner is settled.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (3)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 1 5 . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 3 4 . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also there is this neat double hane sequence, in reserve. Since :w7: works, it means that Black's jump out with the circled stone is not the greatest shape.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:17 am
by Celebrir
Charles Matthews wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (2)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, the cut with :w5: here feels very different from the immediate cut you showed. The corner is settled.
:b4: feels weird because after the right group beeing attacked, the right group should be defended, shouldn't it? I would play like this as B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.8 Prevent the cut
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 1 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Charles Matthews wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (3)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 1 5 . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 3 4 . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also there is this neat double hane sequence, in reserve. Since :w7: works, it means that Black's jump out with the circled stone is not the greatest shape.
Sure, this works, but B is expected to have a weaker position and result. Therefore I think B can play much more peaceful and still be happy:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.9 B plays peaceful
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . 5 4 X O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . 6 X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 X O O . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . 7 O X 8 . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If W would defend at :w8: instead of playing at :w2:, B should be able to easily escape. If W plays like this, B can fix his shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.10 B is good
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . 0 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 9 8 X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 7 X O . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 1 X 6 O . O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . X X O O . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . b O 3 X . X O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Because 'a' is an atari, the cut of :w8: does not work. Besides B has the opiton of 'b'. I would call this successful for B because he only lost 2 stones and the left was not weakened much

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:53 am
by skydyr
Celebrir wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.10 B is good
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . 0 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 9 8 X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 7 X O . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 1 X 6 O . O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . X X O O . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . b O 3 X . X O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Because 'a' is an atari, the cut of :w8: does not work. Besides B has the opiton of 'b'. I would call this successful for B because he only lost 2 stones and the left was not weakened much
At this point, white's center group is undeniably alive, while black's rightwards group can easily come under severe attack. The cut still works, as does the placement, but black can't put pressure on the left to help the group.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:13 am
by Uberdude
Charles's proposed move looks a bit odd to me. That's not to say I think it is bad, just that it is not a normal shape in my go vocabulary (which may in this instance be smaller than his). The one point jump of b doesn't look bad to me (though perhaps a bit wishy-washy): I feel like maybe that leaning move could end up strengthening the black lower middle group when I might prefer to jump out and then cap it. I do agree about wanting to get that placement inside the lower right group which totally settles the corner. Something white must be aware of is if he attacks that group a bit much and black gets to connect that stone during the fight then white's corner group owes an extension on the side to settle so there are some chances for black to counter-attack. And I don't get those recent sequences, they seem like an irrelevant detour.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:52 am
by Celebrir
skydyr wrote:At this point, white's center group is undeniably alive, while black's rightwards group can easily come under severe attack. The cut still works, as does the placement, but black can't put pressure on the left to help the group.
I don't believe you should ever in the near future as black involve attacking the middle group because that can heavily damage your left group. Otherwise the whole sequence on the left might look different and much more deadly for black.
Uberdude wrote:Charles's proposed move looks a bit odd to me. That's not to say I think it is bad, just that it is not a normal shape in my go vocabulary (which may in this instance be smaller than his). The one point jump of b doesn't look bad to me (though perhaps a bit wishy-washy): I feel like maybe that leaning move could end up strengthening the black lower middle group when I might prefer to jump out and then cap it.
I don't see which one point jump for B you mean. Did you mean W's one point jump in my first proposed variations?
Uberdude wrote:I do agree about wanting to get that placement inside the lower right group which totally settles the corner. Something white must be aware of is if he attacks that group a bit much and black gets to connect that stone during the fight then white's corner group owes an extension on the side to settle so there are some chances for black to counter-attack.
Intresting. I discarded it because it is gote and I first wanted to attack B's escape route. I didn't worry that much about W's right group because I hoped to get the extension naturally while attacking or getting ̀€the atari in the corner.
Uberdude wrote:And I don't get those recent sequences, they seem like an irrelevant detour.
Yeah, we might have overanalyzed a little bit there but it seemed and still seems intresting enough on its own in my opinion :study:

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:30 am
by Charles Matthews
Celebrir wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is thin (2)
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 5 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, the cut with :w5: here feels very different from the immediate cut you showed. The corner is settled.
:b4: feels weird because after the right group beeing attacked, the right group should be defended, shouldn't it?
OK, this is the one weak group between two type of position. This would typically be advantageous for the player with the single weak group, i.e. White here. The logic of "striding out" is that the player with the single weak group can jump once, and then the player with the two weak groups then has to decide whether to jump out on the left, or on the right. This is basic stuff about running fights, in the abstract.

Here :b4: is Black's attempt to make it harder for White simply to jump out. That is why it is worth a diagram: to make the point that :w5: seems an adequate resource.
Celebrir wrote: I would play like this as B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.8 Prevent the cut
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 1 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black is heavy
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 . . X . . . O . X . a . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think that things are going well here for White. Playing :w1: here seems compulsory, right now.

On the right, either a or b might be good, depending on the situation in the centre. Your choice of connection for Black is fundamentally very heavy.

If you stand back, neither black group here has eyes, or even any definite points.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:43 am
by Charles Matthews
Uberdude wrote:Charles's proposed move looks a bit odd to me. That's not to say I think it is bad, just that it is not a normal shape in my go vocabulary (which may in this instance be smaller than his).
Just a frinstance variation, anyway. The whole-board situation actually shows Black with an unusual top right framework, as well as the stretched extension visible on the left in the half-board.

The club player's questions are not really addressing the same points as the dan player's, normally.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:50 pm
by Celebrir
Okay, maybe I just want to much because I overestimate the fact that W outnumbers B.
Charles Matthews wrote:Just a frinstance variation, anyway. The whole-board situation actually shows Black with an unusual top right framework, as well as the stretched extension visible on the left in the half-board.
I agree that B's shapes are weird and in my opinion suboptimal. But what I was intrested in how W can use his advantage at the bottom without saying "B played suboptimal, so W can take a small loss"
Charles Matthews wrote:The club player's questions are not really addressing the same points as the dan player's, normally.
This one surprises me. Can you explain that?

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:20 am
by Charles Matthews
Celebrir wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:The club player's questions are not really addressing the same points as the dan player's, normally.
This one surprises me. Can you explain that?
Maybe with an illustration.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.8 As above
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . B X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X W . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We got to this diagram because, it seems, you were concerned about the black marked stone being captured (save the stone!)

I think a dan player would look sadly at the exchange of the black and white marked stones, and wonder why we were discussing light-heavy here, at all.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . b 4 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 5 3 2 a O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X 6 . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a sort of fantasy variation.

But here :b1: is supposed to induce White: White at a, Black at b would be OK. The question with the diagonal jump is always about the answer :w2: shown here. In response Black does go through with the "bad exchange" :b5: for :w6:, but after :w8: (say) has some options.

Re: Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:51 pm
by Celebrir
Charles Matthews wrote: Maybe with an illustration.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 8.8 As above
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . B X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X W . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We got to this diagram because, it seems, you were concerned about the black marked stone being captured (save the stone!)
Nope, I would have no problems with sacrificing that stone, but making a strong for me to escape with the least possible advantage to W(like the peep/closing-in-attempt at :w2: in your second diagram). If that was wrong, please always tell me the better variations, even if you were right that I just wanted to save the stone. Never going to improve if nobody tells me my wrongs ;)
Charles Matthews wrote: I think a dan player would look sadly at the exchange of the black and white marked stones, and wonder why we were discussing light-heavy here, at all.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . b 4 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 5 3 2 a O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . X 6 . O X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a sort of fantasy variation.

But here :b1: is supposed to induce White: White at a, Black at b would be OK. The question with the diagonal jump is always about the answer :w2: shown here. In response Black does go through with the "bad exchange" :b5: for :w6:, but after :w8: (say) has some options.
I'm very intrested in this variation and I think at least the players in my local club would be as well ;)
That said the big difference in the two variations seems to be sente, right? So :b1: is more or less a sacrifice to force W into playing along in a way that make him waste stones? ( :w2: and :w4: seem suboptimal if :b1: wouldn't be there)
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