Life In 19x19

HermanHiddema wrote:But all the evidence clearly suggests that children simply learn faster...

You raise a valid point, though something that is overlooked often is the fact the children are in a situation where their learning is encouraged and, in fact, is pretty much all they do. They have to go to school, they have to study, they have to learn a trade, etc. Being young is all about learning. They have the environment, the social support, the financial freedom, access to the institutions, friends who also learn and study and, above all, time.

How many adults are in a situation where they don't have to succumb to routine? Jobs become monotonous after a few years, it's required to spend eight or more hours a day (and most of one's daily energy) to dedicate to earning money doing the same thing over and over for rent, food, etc.), then time for shopping, cleaning, "social duties" with family, etc. You may end up with 2-3 hours of study time a day, if that, and then it's usually at the end of the day when you're worn. Most adults also aren't in the "study mode". They usually "replay" what they learned a long time ago. If learning is like most abilities, then it becomes easier the more regularly you do it, the more you practice it.

That said, I don't doubt that children pick up knowledge and "skills" naturally. I am not quite as sure whether the difference to the speed of learning as an adult is really as significant, though. Adults are more burdened, by expectations, pressure to succeed, convictions (that they learn more slowly and that they may be past their learning prime -- just believing this might easily lead to a mental block), jobs, other time drains, and so on.

At the end of the day, though, I have to ask (myself, and maybe you): Does it really matter?

Mivo wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:But all the evidence clearly suggests that children simply learn faster...

You raise a valid point, though something that is overlooked often is the fact the children are in a situation where their learning is encouraged and, in fact, is pretty much all they do. They have to go to school, they have to study, they have to learn a trade, etc. Being young is all about learning. They have the environment, the social support, the financial freedom, access to the institutions, friends who also learn and study and, above all, time.

How many adults are in a situation where they don't have to succumb to routine? Jobs become monotonous after a few years, it's required to spend eight or more hours a day (and most of one's daily energy) to dedicate to earning money doing the same thing over and over for rent, food, etc.), then time for shopping, cleaning, "social duties" with family, etc. You may end up with 2-3 hours of study time a day, if that, and then it's usually at the end of the day when you're worn. Most adults also aren't in the "study mode". They usually "replay" what they learned a long time ago. If learning is like most abilities, then it becomes easier the more regularly you do it, the more you practice it.

That said, I don't doubt that children pick up knowledge and "skills" naturally. I am not quite as sure whether the difference to the speed of learning as an adult is really as significant, though. Adults are more burdened, by expectations, pressure to succeed, convictions (that they learn more slowly and that they may be past their learning prime -- just believing this might easily lead to a mental block), jobs, other time drains, and so on.

You're really pretty much exactly repeating my points: The excuses that adults don't have the time, energy and motivation to learn. And I still don't buy it. Where are the unemployed adults that quickly reach pro strength? The retirees? The students? The rich people on sabbatical?

At the end of the day, though, I have to ask (myself, and maybe you): Does it really matter?

No, it doesn't. As has been said plenty of times in this thread, in various ways: The journey is more important than the destination.

I'm 4 dan now, and 32 years old, and I have no illusions that I will ever be pro strength. Not even if I quit my job and spent the next 5 years in China. I enjoy playing go at my level. I also enjoyed playing go when I was 20 kyu, 10 kyu, 5 kyu, 1 kyu, etc. I have always enjoyed playing the game. Enjoyment is why I play.

i have seen toomany korean old man who plays the game everyday for past 30 years in a club. they stopped improving and remain sdk. which prove that age does matter.
but i know that every little kids if they play everyday for one year will reach dan level.

age does matter but i will like to say that if a person (regardless of age) really want to improve i am sure they will reach high dan (5 dan).

Magicwand wrote:
age does matter but i will like to say that if a person (regardless of age) really want to improve i am sure they will reach high dan (5 dan).

Motivation is certainly important, but there's a lot more than that. You also need the time, and the ability to set up an efficient system for studying (assuming you're not taking lessons).

HermanHiddema wrote:You're really pretty much exactly repeating my points: The excuses that adults don't have the time, energy and motivation to learn. And I still don't buy it. Where are the unemployed adults that quickly reach pro strength? The retirees? The students? The rich people on sabbatical?

How many children are there that learn Go every year, and how many of them reach professional strength? How many of them reach amateur 1-5dan compared to the percentage of players who learn the game at 20-25 and reach the same strength? Would the latter have become stronger had they learned the game at 12?

There are no figures, of course, so in the end it's all speculation. I don't really claim that adults learn as fast as children, at least not as a general rule. And perhaps I'm in denial and afraid of the decay that comes with old age (I'm thirty-eight) , though my only "point" was that I don't think the only relevant factor is the age of the brain.

Mivo wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:You're really pretty much exactly repeating my points: The excuses that adults don't have the time, energy and motivation to learn. And I still don't buy it. Where are the unemployed adults that quickly reach pro strength? The retirees? The students? The rich people on sabbatical?

How many children are there that learn Go every year, and how many of them reach professional strength? How many of them reach amateur 1-5dan compared to the percentage of players who learn the game at 20-25 and reach the same strength? Would the latter have become stronger had they learned the game at 12?

There are no figures, of course, so in the end it's all speculation.

What do you mean, there are no figures? 99% of professionals started playing before age 12. Most really strong professionals start really young, at around 5 years old. Zero professionals started playing after age 18.

I don't really claim that adults learn as fast as children, at least not as a general rule. And perhaps I'm in denial and afraid of the decay that comes with old age (I'm thirty-eight) , though my only "point" was that I don't think the only relevant factor is the age of the brain.

Of course age is not the only factor. Talent, dedication, access to teaching, etc, etc, all are factors.

But age really does make a difference. Children just learn quicker and easier.

And I'm fine with that. My brain doesn't learn as quickly as at 6 years old, but at the same time it provides me with a lot of benefits that most 6 year olds don't have. Patience, foresight, social skills, the ability to make long term plans, etc. Lots of things that kids still have to learn. It is the necessary switch that your brain makes.

Magicwand wrote:...if a person (regardless of age) really want to improve i am sure they will reach high dan (5 dan).

Is there a ground for this statement?
It sounds like "anyone who really wants can win the national lottery". Of course, but only if he buys all (or most) of the available tickets.

The question is what it takes for one to reach 5d. How many games, how many books, how many mega-tsumegos per second?

It obviously differs from person to person. Therefore, I don't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

entropi wrote:

Magicwand wrote:...if a person (regardless of age) really want to improve i am sure they will reach high dan (5 dan).

Is there a ground for this statement?
It sounds like "anyone who really wants can win the national lottery". Of course, but only if he buys all (or most) of the available tickets.

The question is what it takes for one to reach 5d. How many games, how many books, how many mega-tsumegos per second?

It obviously differs from person to person. Therefore, I don't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

given proper training and studying ...anybody can reach that level.
that is my belief and probably is true.

10 kyu?? anybody can reach that in a month (given proper training).

entropi wrote:I don't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

Obviously it depends on what you mean by "everyone", and how much flexibility you demand in the surrounding circumstances.

I'm sure you'll find some people who have trouble reaching 30 kyu, because of some reason (perhaps a severe physical handicap, e.g. deaf-blind, or some mental illness). You'll also find some overworked people for whom it's just impossible to spend even half an hour a week on go.

What people really mean when they say "everyone" in that context, is people without severe handicap or illness, with average spare time (let's say 40h work week plus a family with no small kids). And what people usually mean when the say it's possible is of course under the assumption that you are willing to allocate a significant amount of your spare time to it.

Under these assumptions, I think 5 dan is a reasonable estimate for what "everyone" can achieve.

EDIT: Of course it also depends on what you mean by "5 dan". EGF 5 dan would be a bit stronger than AGA 5 dan (which I assume is what Magicwand is referring to). And supposedly I'm Japanese 3 dan, so I'm not that far away from "5 dan" if that really counts

Magicwand wrote:

entropi wrote:

Magicwand wrote:...if a person (regardless of age) really want to improve i am sure they will reach high dan (5 dan).

Is there a ground for this statement?
It sounds like "anyone who really wants can win the national lottery". Of course, but only if he buys all (or most) of the available tickets.

The question is what it takes for one to reach 5d. How many games, how many books, how many mega-tsumegos per second?

It obviously differs from person to person. Therefore, I don't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

given proper training and studying ...anybody can reach that level.
that is my belief and probably is true.

I seriously doubt it.

There are plenty of people out there who simply don't "get" go. Their brains are apparently not wired that way. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I am really bad at learning languages. I had to learn five foreign languages in high school, and I was always struggling with them. No matter how much time and effort I put in. And at the same time I excelled at things like maths, physics and chemistry, despite the fact that I hardly put any effort into them. And there were people in my class that were exactly the other way around. Always struggling with math despite all the hours they put in, while effortlessly getting high grades on their languages.

And I think the same is true for go. Some people learn it effortlessly, others are struggling with every step ahead.

HermanHiddema wrote:

Magicwand wrote:[quote="entropi
Is there a ground for this statement?
It sounds like "anyone who really wants can win the national lottery". Of course, but only if he buys all (or most) of the available tickets.

The question is what it takes for one to reach 5d. How many games, how many books, how many mega-tsumegos per second?

It obviously differs from person to person. Therefore, I don't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

given proper training and studying ...anybody can reach that level.
that is my belief and probably is true.

I seriously doubt it.

There are plenty of people out there who simply don't "get" go. Their brains are apparently not wired that way. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I am really bad at learning languages. I had to learn five foreign languages in high school, and I was always struggling with them. No matter how much time and effort I put in. And at the same time I excelled at things like maths, physics and chemistry, despite the fact that I hardly put any effort into them. And there were people in my class that were exactly the other way around. Always struggling with math despite all the hours they put in, while effortlessly getting high grades on their languages.

And I think the same is true for go. Some people learn it effortlessly, others are struggling with every step ahead.[/quote]

yes i agree with your comment...but 5D can be reached for every normal people (i am talking about 1 standard deviation from the norm of human Intelligence. what is that?? about 92%??). and it might be slow for some but "everyone" can reach 5D.

Magicwand wrote:on't even believe that everyone who really wants (and tries) can reach 10kyu, let alone 5dan.

given proper training and studying ...anybody can reach that level.
that is my belief and probably is true.
[/quote]

Dang, it must be tough to be always right...

The older the better I am 16 and still I beat my brother who is 11

Anyone can become strong if they take to heart what stronger people say. Why go through the process of rediscovering everything when it has already been discovered? There's a few people that bring in their go books to club, yet they keep playing the same moves that the books say not to play. You can't really expect things to click on their own when you randomly study, got to have the conscious effort.

Now the pro level is different. Such high levels of play you can no longer read what the stronger players have already discovered, because you are the stronger player, so you're at the frontier discovering completely new things. That takes another level entirely, so you have to start young and stay ahead of the game. If you don't start young, then you're already in the footsteps of those who did, so you're stuck reading what the stronger have already discovered (and losing to them).

HermanHiddema wrote:What do you mean, there are no figures? 99% of professionals started playing before age 12. Most really strong professionals start really young, at around 5 years old. Zero professionals started playing after age 18.

While I completely agree that younger children learn faster (I'm actually a bit surprised at the number of people disputing this fact...I've had but a handful of games against young children learning to play, and their rate of improvement is astounding), but I think this particular use of numbers is misplaced. In this day and age it is (some outliers excluded) necessary to start at a young age to become professional simply because there are many who start at a young age who aim at becoming professionals. Even if there were no difference in learning, imagine two comparably skilled people born at the same time. One of them starts go at age 5, one starts at age 18. At the very least, the one starting at age 5 will always 13 years experience on the one who starts at 18. As long as you have enough talented people starting a a young age, this difference will easily become insurmountable for those not equally blessed. This may have nothing to do how well one learns, etc, simply that if you want to be in the top tier you must have virtually every advantage working in your favor and one of those advantages is time (not to mention the amazing commitment that must be made, though those other factors have been discussed already). Again this would only apply to the top tier (professionals) and isn't to say that a person starting older can't become strong, or a high dan player...It is simply saying that they have already suffered setbacks as to the maximum potential they could have reached (and acknowledging that there are others who have not suffered those same setbacks).