Page 3 of 16

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:05 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On with joseki we go. I also considered the one-space jump, but thought the shape was weaker.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:03 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Continuing with Shaddy's plan. At the moment, I'm considering letting him counter-pincer, then doing a checking extension to pincer THAT, then perhaps trying to link back to that 'sacrificed' stone later.


Edit: It's worth noting that all of this work reading out alternatives on joseki to adapt them to the current situation is really helping me understand why moves are joseki normally. For example, everything I'm looking at now has to take into account whether or not it lets my opponent push and cut the jump I just made. Good practice.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:07 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . W . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have a sente on the left to seal Black in, so I'm first taking that and then attacking to prevent counterpincer. W could also play one space below this point, but Black's followup would be better.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . 2 . . . . . 4 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 1 . . 3 . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2 will help 4 escape.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:18 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . B . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's play here really surprised me. While I get threatening to seal my corner, if I manage to stabilize this group in the middle, white's wall has a lot harder time doing anything. This may be a huge mistake, but this seems like an important direction of play to take. I just need to be sure I don't give white too much in the middle while I'm doing this.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:37 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


*shrug* if my opponent is willing to let me seal him in, so much the better for me. I still have forcing moves against the black group in the middle, so the center is about to grow quite large.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:38 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . B . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, I feel like this last move may be too generous, as white can push me down? Shaddy (or anyone else), where would you have recommended my last move be? Regardless, this should give stability to all of my groups. I think?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:07 pm
by Aphelion
Here's my take on it: if B is going to just try to live so gutlessly, why pincer? I don't like the abrupt shift in attitude here. B seems to be playing out of fear of W getting anything on the bottom, and as a result is scrambling to patch all the holes that arise.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:50 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . W X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd have recommended moving out with a kosumi, the one-point jump can be separated here. This seems to end up ok though black is flat.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:59 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O B , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now is my shot to go up, and get into the center. Aphelion, while your words seem harsh, I think perhaps I deserved it. I need to zoom out and look at the big picture. I strongly considered resigning last night, but I think I was in too self-critical a mood. If you guys think I should resign, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm going to try to build my confidence so that I don't play passively, and play as though I ate a lion. I feel like I haven't gotten enough cash to compensate for the thickness my opponent has, but perhaps I'm not as badly off as it looks. I have a fair amount of stability and flexibility in all of my groups, and that means that I may be able to reduce/attack with relative safety. I just need to make sure that my reductions don't stabilize more points than I have.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:03 pm
by topazg
The corner is alive, and F4 is unimportant. Black isn't trying to make much territory down here, so he has little to lose - I don't quite understand why Black is "flat"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 5 O 2 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 1 X 4 X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . 3 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X a O 2 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 1 X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:06 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Crap, wasn't expecting that. I thought I'd get this, but it was wishful thinking.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O 7 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 2 O 5 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 1 X 3 X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger
If you connect, I will connect g4

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:13 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . 1 . 3 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O X , a . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X 2 X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going to consider my options here for a while. Instead of pruning things that look weird, I'm trying to consider my options more fully. For example, I'm not sure if this would be bad, if it didn't leave a harsh peep at 'a'. If I can't think of something crazy, I may go with the obvious connection, which is probably what's in Shaddy's trigger.

I'm thinking that this variation looks dumb, but there might be something else, and I don't want to underthink and miss it.


edit: topazg:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X B O X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 O X . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You show this variation (Which looks fine, of course) but you show 'a' and 'b' as miai. Unless I'm having an idiot moment, 'a' is false miai because it doesn't work? Which just means I would probably take 'b' and be happy, since it's the obvious shape move with the rest of my moves, and gets me far into the center. Am I misreading this?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:42 pm
by Chew Terr
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Beep. Boop. Trigger accepted.
Anywhere I have living stones, my opponent will not have points. Also this has potential for various things later, like getting half a dozen points by jumping up from the other side, as well as helping me threaten to disconnect groups later. As far as what I want to do next, I'm itching to either make some points on top or fire off a big reduction (Most of all I'm eyeing D8 and E9). I would also love to add a move to the bottom right corner, but I'm trying to see what would be sente, first.


Shaddy: May I ask why you chose the connection there? That seems a bit more defensive than you needed, did you seee a followup that I didn't?

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:06 pm
by topazg
@Chew: You are quite right, it wasn't miai, it was my brainstorming not finished. It's tesuji to connect underneath I think if you have to, that was all.

Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:11 pm
by Chew Terr
topazg wrote:@Chew: You are quite right, it wasn't miai, it was my brainstorming not finished. It's tesuji to connect underneath I think if you have to, that was all.


Ah, thanks for clearing it up. Regardless, there certainly would have been aji in the area. Perhaps that is why Shaddy chose the more solid connection.