Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
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Indeed, an opponents position is weak only to the extent that you as a player can do something worthwhile against it. Nonetheless, the perspective that the strength of a position might turn out to be an illusion is valuable, as it encourages you to look for weaknesses and try to take advantage of them instead of just assuming that something is strong.Kirby wrote:Agree. This topic is a bit funny because a concept like "thickness" can mean different things depending on the skill level of the player. At KGS 1d, I would call it thick. Apparently, KGS 4~5d thinks so, too. Does a pro think it's thick? I don't know. But maybe it doesn't matter if you don't understand the reasoning and sequences behind the pro's thinking.
There is one prominent portion of my very first post on this thread that no-one except for daal seems to have taken into account. I repeat:Indeed, an opponents position is weak only to the extent that you as a player can do something worthwhile against it. Nonetheless, the perspective that the strength of a position might turn out to be an illusion is valuable, as it encourages you to look for weaknesses and try to take advantage of them instead of just assuming that something is strong.
By virtue of inputting so many games in the GoGoD database I probably see a lot more pro games than most people. Most of these have pros' comments which I usually skim through as I input. So my realisation is well grounded, even if I personally have not acquired the understanding yet to explain their reasoning or the skills to back up whatever understanding I have acquired.I am also influenced in my opinion by a growing realisation that pros see weak groups much earlier than I do. To some extent that must be because they have far more terrifying weapons than I do, and so can go after lions where I can only go after rabbits, but I think also a big part of the reason is that we amateurs tend to think of weak groups as anaemic, weedy clusters that have to live urgently, whereas pros seem to count many groups that allow a powerful forcing move (as is the case here) as weak.
In the FWIW department, my assessment agrees almost exactly with Crazy Stone's. White has almost picked up komi. I lean towards "c", but have a hard time choosing among it and "a" and "b". "d" was off my radar.dfan wrote:Now that lots of people have weighed in, I gave the position to Crazy Stone for fun (2 million playouts). Its top choices are listed in alphabetical order (that is, it thinks a is best), but all four are very close in evaluation. It assesses the current position as approximately W+5.5 (assuming 7.5 komi).
I don't argue with either of these points, and in fact, since we have evidence that a pro has said those examples were not thick, I'm willing to assume they probably have some insight (though, in fact, the examples don't seem as thick as the position in the OP to me).John Fairbairn wrote: I have also introduced a couple of pro examples from books. Nobody has shot them down. Fundamental to my argument is the belief that pros know more than amateurs about go.
The PON seems relevant to John's assessment. He is not saying that the White group has a PON of 1, since a White tenuki to a Black move would not be fatal. But I suppose that a "truly weak group" would have a low PON.John Fairbairn wrote:I find this interesting because where you see thickness I see a potential weak or heavy group.Knotwilg wrote:Me too I have a hard time to decide how to develop the left but O4 is still too close to White's thickness I think
As objective reasons for calling it potentially weak, it does not have any guaranteed eyes at all yet and is bounded by strong Black groups on both sides. If Black plays a move against it, White probably has to defend (or else accept a truly weak group), but his defensive move would be purely that - there is no move to make territory while defending.
stone, which get a low initial weight of 0.2, because of that. The second order partial sum is thus 12.6, which has an overall weight of 0.5. The overall partial sum is 11 + 0.5(12.6) = 17.3. stone. The third order partial sum is thus 11, which has an overall weight of 0.35. The overall partial sum is 17.3 + 0.35(11) = 21.15. stone. The fourth order partial sum is thus 11.8, which has an overall weight of 0.25. The overall sum is 21.15 + 0.25(11.8) = 24.10.And he shall come to judge the thick and the dead.Uberdude wrote:Maybe I can make clear my (mis?)use of the word thick by saying in the below position white's group is both thick and dead. It's not strong. Before it was strong-enough-for-now.
What does the PON estimate say?Uberdude wrote:In Lee's game Gu later attacked at a, and Lee tenukid and Gu later attacked again at b and Lee ended up making a small life in sente. Despite getting 2 tenukis from it Lee later said he should not have ignored the initial attack but jumped to c to preserve the power of the thickness.
we have
would have preserved an actual PON of at least 2, which pros generally do in the opening. Lee later said that he should have played there, but he did not, so it is a close call.Possible Omission Number. I. e., how many times you can tenuki and still live.DrStraw wrote:PON?