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Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:20 pm
by luigi
hyperpape wrote: Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?
No. The button is a special token which adds half a point to its owner. At his turn a player may take the button instead of making a board play or passing. Taking the button lifts any restriction on taking a ko or superko. The button can only be taken once by one of the players.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:24 pm
by luigi
Bill Spight wrote: hyperpape wrote:
Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?
7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.
That's interesting. I knew 7 komi under area scoring was the best approximation to 6.5 komi under territory scoring (in the sense that Black's average result should be the same in both cases), but I thought the button produced a different spread of results.
What other exceptions are there?
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 pm
by jeromie
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c
I considered a-d, all of which have been played in professional games. b was played by Go Seigen in a game against Sakata Eio, which made it especially tempting to try.
But every game since 2000 that has ended up in this position has played a (according to ps.waltheri.net), and I think that is most likely to lead to the kind of territorial game for white that I am aiming for.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:42 pm
by hyperpape
C14, pawn.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 pm
by jeromie
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:59 am
by hyperpape
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:37 am
by jeromie
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
The most common pro move in this situation, by far, is at a (48/52 on ps.waltheri.net, though most of those are older games). b has been played a few times, though, and is at least worth considering.
I'm a bit torn. I feel like the move at a is consistent with my desire to play a territorial game, but I don't like the direction things develop if I let black build up massive influence across the whole board while all of my stones are confined to two corners. The truth is that I feel far more comfortable working for a balance of territory and influence. I also think a is likely to lead to a large secure area for black where he can potentially play many kings.
So, change in direction. I'm going to play b because it's a viable move and it feels right. I like the balance between territory and influence it creates, and allowing that group to break out means I don't have two super heavy groups to manage. I do have to be careful about black moves against the lower left now, since I can't sacrifice that group, but I think I can manager. (I finally found some variations where white sacrifices the move I kinged earlier, but it actually came in a game where white played at a.)
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:03 pm
by EdLee
Possible:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re:
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:38 am
by Schachus
EdLee wrote:
Possible:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
I would expect black to play the attachment on the bottom first, at least if dont take into account kingo speciallyties yet. Your variation feels just better for white than
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W(alternatively 4 at a), so my intuition is to punish white for not finishing the bottom first. Maybe it isnt really better though, cause in your game variation black gets sente, while in the other one white would have sente
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:53 am
by Bill Spight
luigi wrote: Bill Spight wrote: hyperpape wrote:
Is 6 komi with a button equivalent to 6.5 komi?
7 pt. komi with a button (area scoring) is equivalent to a 6.5 komi (territory scoring), with some exceptions, such as having a seki with an odd number of dame.
That's interesting. I knew 7 komi under area scoring was the best approximation to 6.5 komi under territory scoring (in the sense that Black's average result should be the same in both cases), but I thought the button produced a different spread of results.
What other exceptions are there?
As you have pointed out, having seki with an odd number of dame is not an exception. I goofed.
But there are one way dame, which do not have to be played before the button. For instance, suppose that Black has a one way dame and a territory score of 6. Because she does not have to play the one way dame before the button is taken, she will get an area score of 7.5. After the button is taken, she will have a score of 6.5, and then she takes the one way dame for one more point. Also, there are ko fights that may not be finished until after the button is taken, and they may be exceptions, as well. In addition, it is possible to have positions on the board that are equivalent to a button (I have constructed one), so that who gets the button does not matter.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:58 am
by Bill Spight
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
I don't know about AlphaGo, but this is a position about which Go Seigen was ambivalent. In his 10 book set,
21st Century Go , there is one place where he likes it for White, one place where he doesn't.
$$Wcm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10
My sealed move.
Edit: Unhidden.
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:00 pm
by hyperpape
$$Bcm15
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm15
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:53 pm
by jeromie
$$Bcm15
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm15
We're still within an opening that has been played by pros - there are 3 games on ps.waltheri.net with this sequence. (I find it interesting that two of them involve Cho Chikun, but he played black in one and white in the other. Also, it's a bit weird to be playing a game where I can reference what moves the pros played. I've never played an open book game before.) In all cases 15 and 16 were the standard moves.
I don't have a reason to consider a different move, but I do need to consider whether it should be a king or a pawn. In all of the pro games the stones in the corner stayed connected, but I think that if I made this stone a king black could get a result better than the normal corner by forcing me to play defensively after a hane at f2, like so:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
I have to play passively at 4 instead of breaking out of the corner with a move like a because I can't sacrifice 2. There are also lines that would involve sacrificing my original king stone, which I can't do.
It's interesting playing this variation. It makes me think about the threat of sacrificing even when I don't intend to do so. It's hard to consider that several moves ahead, but I can't add as many kings to this corner group as I had hoped. Things should be more clear after the next move, though.
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:40 pm
by EdLee
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B
Re: Kingo Malkovitch#1: Jeromie vs. Hyperpape
Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:05 pm
by hyperpape
But every game since 2000 that has ended up in this position has played a (according to ps.waltheri.net), and I think that is most likely to lead to the kind of territorial game for white that I am aiming for.