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22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=154

Page 3 of 7

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:06 pm
by topazg
Bill Spight wrote:
Chunk of awesomeness


:shock:

Unhidden shock face because paranoia in Malkovich games is fantastic! And also because those are some delightful tricks that I'd never have read!

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:31 pm
by Bill Spight
topazg wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Chunk of awesomeness


:shock:

Unhidden shock face because paranoia in Malkovich games is fantastic! And also because those are some delightful tricks that I'd never have read!


I read them -- in the book! ;)

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:33 am
by zinger
Well I certainly wasn't expecting that. Maybe it is one of Solomon's tricks :o

No need to panic though. My plan is still the same: I must capture the coner stones. If they live or escape, the results is a disaster for black.

But this strange hane allows an atari on top - is it possiblie to get out, still leaving the corner with a dead shape? If so that would be a huge success for black. So much so, that I can hardly believe a player of white's strength would allow it. It is tempting to just trust him, but since this is a slow game I can try some heavier reading. I'll need a little time on this one.


tl:dr - I'm taking a bit of time on this one.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:54 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first thought:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 5 1 3 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looks like black can't get out this way. How about

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 5 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 4 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A turtle shell, but in gote. Not bad, but white can vary:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 a X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

5 threatens a ladder if white cuts at a, but 6 breaks it, and black is just getting squeezed tighter. So I guess I must play inside. But where?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 4 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . 7 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here 2-8 are all sente. I want to capture, but minimize white's outside strength.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But this way 2 etc is still sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 6 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 3 O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 7 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Giving white this stone doesn't feel right either.

Meh, I'm stumped, I guess I have to accept getting squeezed. Maybe I did something wrong already ..

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:27 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . W O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:54 pm
by Bill Spight
More from Sakata's book:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O B B . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 O X X O 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sakata's variation is based on a two space high pincer, but I think it works here, too.

:w1: does not win the semeai, but it takes away a liberty of the marked Black stones. White gets very nice thickness.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:08 am
by zinger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


4 liberties to 4, so no choice here. White squeezes with sente whenever he wants. This feels like a failure for black.

On the other hand, white's original pincer stone looks too close now, overconcentrated, so maybe it's not so bad.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:18 am
by zinger
dang, looking back I think this one would have been ok after all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can now play atari at a. How did I miss that?

But then again ..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe this would still work for white. Meh, reading is hard.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:24 am
by Jonas
visible for zinger after the next 5-10 moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 6 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You have to mind the ladder here. I dont know if it is good to give white the corner as a breaker.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 1 8 X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And what about this 6?

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:36 pm
by Solomon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Later on I'm going to try transcribing my videos so those who prefer reading rather than watching may have the option; I just have to go grab one of those pedals that transcriptionists use to type up memos or whatever, which my dad has lying around at his workplace. But yeah, look forward to that (unless after I do it once, I realize it takes up too much time - but for sure I'll give it a try).

There's one other thing I forgot to mention in the video. My reasoning behind playing the 5-5 isn't simply "Oh, well I know little about it so I'm going to play it" as I mentioned. More importantly, I chose to play it because I think it goes hand-in-hand with the influence I got at the lower right and gives me even greater access to the center, which can become crucial for any fights that may erupt into the center.

Though some people may consider the 5-5 to be odd, I've found it to be quite versatile and, while it does tend to give a bit more cash to the opponent entering the corner under the 5-5 than usual, it can be a useful stone to develop a moyo or assist in a fight. It can also be an intimidating move to some people :).

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:06 pm
by zinger
wtf?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Playing on general principles here. I don't think white can't finish the top left corner in one move, so that area does not seem urgent. The bottom right is pretty much played out. The two black hoshi stones are not well suited to making an enclosure. So, I go for an empty side. My bottom left stone is closer to white's strength, and therefore a little weaker, so I play over there as opposed to the top.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:03 pm
by Bill Spight
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Black's game is in its death throes. ;)

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:44 pm
by Kirby
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:08 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I could learn a lot from this as well.

Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:17 pm
by Bill Spight
Kirby wrote:
Is F3 better than C6 as an approach move for white? I would have probably played C6, because F3 seems too close to white's influence here.

Perhaps there's something I can learn from this. Could someone elaborate?


I think that C-06 is generally better. It isn't so much that F-03 is too close to White's thickness. After all, it is a 4 space extension. But, assuming that Black replies with F-03 or so, his further prospects on the bottom side are limited.
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